Thabiti Anyabwile critiques multi-site churches.
Frank Turk responds, sort of, in an open letter to Chris Rosebrough.
Willems says the world is cracked and, maybe, that’s the way it’s supposed to be.
Tim Challies on how to know the will of God.
Michael Horton reviews Scot McKnight’s new book.
McKnight comments on a point he raises in his book about the so-called soterian gospel.
Carole Turner asks why no girls in the Elephant Room?
Karen Spears Zacharias on Brennan Manning’s autobiography.
Kevin DeYoung says blame it on Babylon.
Richard Beck contrasts the Churches of Christ and evangelicalism.
Thabiti interviews Christian counselor Bob Kellemen.
Why Kellemen prefers local ministry over the speaking circuit.
Dan Phillips on singles, churches and Scripture.
Dave Miller’s observations and questions for old-earthers and theistic evolutionists.
How Trevin Wax wishes the homosexuality debate would go.
Chuck Warnock looks at the myths surrounding the growth of conservative churches.
James White critiques Roger Olson.
Olson on the best Arminian commentaries on Romans 9. Olson asks what makes someone evangelical.
Speaker highlights from Catalyst 2011.
195 Responses to “Linkathon 10/19”
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A few comments, first the God hates you Driscoll clip, this is mild, I have been told God loathes me, personally and has before I was born. God laughs at me and cant wait until I draw my last breath so He can inflict His Holy Wrath on me, personally. I have never really disagreed with that but that is another post. At least Driscoll did not go into 16 month old grown up babies slaughtering their fathers over a shiny watch, I dont understand how a person can view children like that.
At the Frank Turk humble fest I must say, granted this is emotional but um What ever.
PS thanks for the links Brian
My comment towards Mr. Turk was a bit harsh, after re reading the thread I apologize. I hope you all have a nice evening.
The Scott McClellan post includes an imbedded video from Youtube that was removed by the user who posted it… if you want the original source, click here: http://marshill.com/media/luke/jesus-sweats-blood, and go to minute 35- 47 for the relevant parts.
I checked out the video from Karen Spears Zacharias’ site– Manning’s “trailer” for his biography?– and I was astounded with the feeble condition Manning is in these days (if that’s really him).
What a precious soul to be so vulnerable to so many people… and his quote at the end… POWERFUL:
“Do you believe that the God of Jesus loves you beyond worthiness and unworthiness, beyond fidelity and infidelity, that He loves in the morning, sun, and the evening rain, that He loves you when you don’t recognize it, your emotions refuse it, your whole being rejects it?
“Do you believe that God loves without condition or reservation and loves you this moment– as you are– and not as you “should be”?”
I admit I have difficulty believing in that kind of love. Not for others, but for myself. God have mercy on me, and help my unbelief… and bless Manning and others who, like Paul, have been “patterns” of God’s mercy (1 Timothy 1:16).
Read the article on Mr. Driscoll and another article it linked too.
Fortunately the 2nd article retained Mark’s words after Mars Hill apparently has edited out the offensive portion of Mark’s sermon.
I use the words Mr. Driscoll and Mark because I cannot in good conscience demean the many men and the Savior who bring great value and virtue to the office of “Pastor”.
Ryan, yes that’s really him.
I’ve been curious for some time now, but how in the world do you pronounce Thabiti Anyabwile?
UUGG – if I see one more article or book about how to know the will of God, I am going to puke.
I think Driscoll did a good job on a tough topic.
What do folks think they’re saved from?
Trevin Wax does an excellent job with his piece on homosexuality…
Scot Mcknight found something to write a book about that none of the rest of us has. He’s got the real Gospel, the rest of us don’t. Of course, he is unable to really describe what the difference is, as his new Gospel sounds just like the old Gospel. I guess I’ll have to read his book to make sure I get it right…yeah, not gonna happen.
Josh,
Actually…McKnights book is full of a lot of things very worthy of examination…
Eh, I don’t don’t doubt it. I usually like him, I just hate the “I’ve got it right / You’ve got it wrong” tone of that post. I don’t even particularly disagree with his assertion that soteriology is only part of the Gospel, but again, I don’t hear anyone who argues the opposite of that.
How so, Michael?
BrianD,
We’ve basically boiled down the Gospel message to “how to stay out of hell”.
It’s so much broader and deeper than that…and once you began to grasp the other parts of the Kingdom message it becomes even more beautiful and hopeful.
People like McKnight and Wright are showing us the forest instead of an individual tree…
The McKnight article is outstanding! In fact, he has demonstrated the main difference between the king of preaching I heard as a Protestant and the kind of preaching I hear now.
Formerly, I heard decades of sermons about the technicalities of the Atonement and how we benefit. Sometimes it almost sounded like a declaration of our rights: Christ did this and now (or so it often sounded) we have the right to claim this.
The kind of sermons I hear now are not based on theories of the Atonement but are based on the life of Christ, which is helpful because our goal as Christians is to acquire the mind of Christ. The Church calendar is based on the life of Christ and we re-live the entire Gospel story every year. This is so alive and vibrant. Christ did come and live a sinless life here on earth and arranged things so the last three years of His life is recorded in some detail. He actually said very little (if anything) about the topic of Imputation, etc but instead said “Follow Me.”
It’s the difference between viewing Christ as an almost abstract tool in someone’s atonement doctrine and viewing Christ as a real Person whose example we are to follow.
Kevin DeYoung’s piece is also very good…
“We’ve basically boiled down the Gospel message to “how to stay out of hell”.”
Who is saying that? Maybe a minority of over-zealous loudmouths, but even if you heard them for more than 10 seconds, you’d probably hear more than “how to stay out of Hell”. Eternal Salvation IS a glorious part of why Jesus came, so obviously, preaching and teaching it is essential. Jesus did it himself. I think you are taking that out of context of most right-minded believers who are trying to make disciples…of which Salvation is a key part.
“BrianD,
We’ve basically boiled down the Gospel message to “how to stay out of hell”.”
Pretty much.
In my experience, if you’re not saved the point is for you to get saved, so you don’t go to hell. Once you get saved, it’s to do good and do right and not sin so you stay saved and don’t go to hell when you die.
Reading through McKnight’s post, and Michael Horton’s review, my impression of McKnight’s main point is this: the good news is more of a journey than a decision.
Am I understanding him correctly?
BrianD,
It’s both…and it’s implications are more than just individual regeneration, though that is obviously the core component.
The idea that Christ has already inaugurated the Kingdom and we’re in this “already/not yet” space where we both participate in and long for the fullness of that kingdom is mind blowing to me…
“I think you are taking that out of context of most right-minded believers who are trying to make disciples…of which Salvation is a key part.”
I think I know what I’ve heard and read in a life spent in or near the church…and I think it’s been way out of balance for a long time.
Your mileage may vary.
For 40 years I heard sermons where Jesus was more of a puzzle piece in someone’s soteriology than a real live warm, flesh and blood Person. I have even heard it said that the particulars of Christ’s life don’t matter much, the only thing that matters was His work on the Cross. In this type of preaching, Christ is an abstract idea, not a real person. The point of these sermons is to tell us that because of Christ’s work on the cross, we have certain rights as believers.
A return to a church calendar could help to correct this.
You want a good little summary for the Christian life in just one sentence (albeit a long sentence)?
Check out Hebrews 13:20-21
Meditate on each point slowly, and I think you will see it has it all!
Out of balance…sure. Possibly. But, that’s not what Mcknight says on his blog:
“The soterian gospel is not the gospel of Jesus, of Peter or Paul.”
He’s not just saying the overall evangelical Gospel is too-heavily weighted towards Salvation, he is saying we have it all wrong.
Now, given that Gospel presentation is impossible without the idea of individual salvation, I will give you that perhaps some preachers focus there, too much, maybe. But again, I know of no church, denomination, or movement that doesn’t also include the other things that Mcknight says are vital to the true Gospel. In short, I think he has a created a false enemy. One that is easy to defeat, and in doing so is actually feeding into that same “maybe I’m not saved” fear, by saying, in essence, “My book gets the Gospel right. Read it if you wanna know what the Gospel REALLY is.”
I haven’t read the book, and won’t. I am only commenting on this blog post, the ensuing comments and a little insight from the Horton review.
” I have even heard it said that the particulars of Christ’s life don’t matter much, the only thing that matters was His work on the Cross. ”
I’ve never heard anything remotely close to this in a Protestant church. If anyone else has heard this, it lets me know that your experience has been vastly different than mine.
Well Josh, I have! I am old! I’ve been attending churches for nearly 60 years and I’ve heard all kinds of stuff.
And lest you think I was part of fringe groups, I was a Baptist until I was thirty and a CC attendee until I was fifty. But I did listen to a lot of evangelical radio for years and maybe that’s where I heard it. But I did hear it for sure. And even then, I cringed.
I don’t doubt your perspective, Xenia. I was just pointing out that it was shocking to me, as it is entirely different than what I have experienced.
Carole Turner’s article was right on.
It’s a ridiculous travesty the way women are marginalized within evangelicalism.
Josh,
Xenia made a great point earlier — we all need more familiarity with the church calendar. I’ve included a link below that explains it.
And what Xenia’s talking about I believe is true for all liturgical churches. Lutherans put lots of emphasis on Christ’s life, as well as his death and resurrection. His life is noted
in our liturgies just as much as His death and resurrection.
Here’s something typical, from a Lutheran pastor, writing about Easter:
“The foundation of the Christian faith is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ lived the righteous and perfect life that we, because of our fallen and corrupt nature, cannot. He suffered the penalty for our sins by taking our guilt upon Himself and dying horribly on the cross. He rose bodily from the dead that first Easter morning ensuring that we who have been baptized into His death and resurrection will rise again in glorified bodies on the Last Day.
This is the great paschal mystery that Christians have celebrated since the earliest days of the church. As the apostle Paul joyfully declared: …Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive… “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! (1 Corinthians 15:20-22 and 55-57).
On Easter Sunday therefore, while secular society occupies itself with eggs and rabbits, the Christian church celebrates God’s great triumph over sin, death, and the devil with the ancient greeting:
Alleluia! Christ is risen!
He is risen indeed! Alleluia!
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/easter.htm#WHAT IS EASTER?
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/litcal2.htm (an overview of the liturgical calendar)
“Formerly, I heard decades of sermons about the technicalities of the Atonement and how we benefit. Sometimes it almost sounded like a declaration of our rights: Christ did this and now (or so it often sounded) we have the right to claim this. ”
Sounds like the Apostle Paul!
While Carole Turner may be right about women’s role in the modern church, she should be honored that she has not been invited to The Elephant Room.
That is very true, Josh.
I’d like to add a link:
The kid in the ad is my son.
Lutheran@#31, that was a great quote! (even if it was Lutheran)
Thanks, JAWC!
I think!
Interesting this is a very similar discussion to the one I was seeking on the other thread…
Scot McKnight.. has the ball rolling in the right direction.. but typically he shortchanges the message and role of the Spirit in his representation of the Gospel…The Biblical Gospel is very very focused on the Spirit..
John the Baptists promises the ONE to come and turns the affections of his hearers to Jesus … WHO WILL BAPTIZE all in the Spirit…
Jesus … turns his own disciples affections to the Spirit whom he will send from the Father. He very much wants his followers to focus their entire anticipation upon the Spirit’s coming .And Yes the Spirit will refocus their affections on Jesus when he comes and leads them into all the truth.
But then the Apostles preach Jesus as inaugurating a kingdom in the Holy Spirit… and focus their message on receiving that Spirit…
Forgiveness and the Spirit… the twin message of New Covenant…
Oh and Josh…
The Protestant Reformers dis precisely what you hate… they came and told the people that the church had it all wrong…
Jesus did the same thing… “you have heard it said but I say unto you…”
And yes McKnight and a bunch of others are doing likewise… notably NTW … and of course yours truly…
So work at getting it right .. that should be our obsession…
I can’t wait till open blogging to ask this question, but need your help, so I hope you will pardon my parenthesis in your discussion.
My son was just selected to interview Herman Cain. He’s wondering if any of you have some suggested questions to ask?
Thank you for this momentary pause in this conversation. I’ll look for your suggestions in the next Open Blogging.
Tell him to ask if the liberal media is racist in their evaluations and treatments of him and his positions….?
“The Protestant Reformers dis precisely what you hate… they came and told the people that the church had it all wrong…”
Well, that in itself is a misunderstanding of anything I’ve said. What I hate is when people continually add to the Gospel and seek to turn it into this maze of confusion that no one could ever get right…and just when you think you have it right, they twist it again.
My obsession is knowing Jesus. More of Him, less of me. Your obsession of getting it right is the path to depression, failure, and condemnation. Enjoy yourself, but I ain’t coming along for the ride.
Josh,
Again we talk past each other …. did I not define Christianity as knowing Jesus earlier on the other thread…. when I was speaking over against ODMs fussing …
And as for adding to the Gospel… am I not continuously arguing for the apostolic Gospel … that is a worthy argument and by the way you were asking me to clarify now you accuse me of adding to the Gospel and confusing it … nothing is further from true…
In the Gospel we get our sins forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit … that is what Jeremiah promised 31, it is what Ezekiel prophesied, it is what John the Baptist said Jesus would do , the ‘lamb that takes away the sin of the world’ will ‘baptize you in the Holy Spirit,’ it is what Jesus said he would do, ‘ the new covenant in my blood,’ and ‘send another Helper.’ It is the Apostolic Gospel of Peter in Acts…
What they did not do is bother about getting us to a place called heaven… we ‘simplified’ the Gospel into a heaven/hell message which obscures the simplicity and wonder of forgiven sins and life in the Holy Spirit … and it moves our focus from this world to the next. And it creates thought police who parse creeds and spend endless arguments on who qualifies for the right exit….
I am arguing that we stop making this glorious life about final destinies and make it about following Lamb wherever he goes HERE AND NOW
Maybe I have you wrong Josh but,
Your last answers on these threads sound to me as if you spent a lot of time being twisted about whether you get to GO or not… which would have made me your advocate not your enemy…
But I am often misunderstood …
While I agree with what you are saying about the hear and now, you are leaving out, or intentionally ignoring the “everlasting life” parts. I reject that “eternal” is about quality of life rather than duration. That doesn’t even make sense, Dread. If you were saying, “The Gospel is not only about the afterlife, it is about here and now.” I would agree with you 100%. But you didn’t say that. You said,”Forget about this afterlife nonsense”. I am convinced that every person who ever lived, including Jesus, was concerned about the afterlife. I also believe that the Gospel, without question, includes assurance for life after death. The Gospel is for now AND then. Anyone who argues one side to exclusion of the other is in error.
I don’t know which thread to post on, so I flipped a coin and landed here.
Babs, I kinda understand your point as you mimic NTW – but let me ask this. What do you do with the words of Jesus in Matt 25 when He separated the sheep and the goats. Neither group knows whether or not they have been a party to a present kingdom and both groups are dispatched to locations different from where they are and different from each other?
MLD,
Many texts have such implications… I do not deny afterlife … I think immortality is the gift of eternal life… and that we have a life with God in the new heavens and new earth of the restored creation…
Nowhere do I deny judgment or afterlife realities… what I deny is that the Gospel is preached in the scripture with afterlife as its focus…
Jesus was constantly threatening his recalcitrant covenant people with their destruction in this life and the next… though he did not speak of the torture chamber we have made the focus of our gospel… the Gospel is not ‘good news get out of hell free’ …not ever…
and MLD as for mimicking NTW… really? ….so I should call myself NTWD? SMILE…
I do find advocacy in him but not alone…. I leave sola Luther to you…smile
To reiterate… I believe in doctrines of heaven and hell but do not think them the focus of Biblical Gospel preaching…
Though I find myself wanting to say just “Go to…Heaven” to stop my own discussion…
BD,
I have some sympathy and affection for your position until you contort it as badly as you claim others do.
This life ain’t glorious and never has been for the people of God.
This life is lived in a broken creation by broken people heading toward the inevitable fate of all flesh.
Without the hope of heaven or a renewed creation or whatever the hell you want to call it, this life is nothing more than a painful march toward dirt.
Without Rev 22, Acts 2 is irrelevant.
Dread –
Why do you make it an either/or? As I’ve been reading the threads, not a single person interacting with you has ever once claimed the gospel is all about “going to heaven when you die.” Not once have they used the caricature that you’ve painted.
A word of advice – stop burning the straw men.
Not one time have I made it either or except in my insistence about how the Gospel is actually preached in the scripture itself.
BD,
You seem to limit your “Gospel” to the kerygma of Acts…and that is an incomplete picture.
“Stop the nonsense about know where you will go when you die… Salvation is KNOWING JESUS here and NOW…”
SO, you didn’t say either/or, you just called knowing where you go after you die “nonsense”.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Dread is making the error of Corinth. In the study of that epistle, the Corinthians were focused on the NOW part of the kingdom, to the exclusion of the NOT YET part. What it meant to be pneumatikos (spiritual).
The corrections Paul offers, even as to keeping the sexual distinctions, the importance of the body and purity were secondary to their foundational error.
I highly recommend Fee’s commentary on 1 Corinthians for development of this understanding.
Interesting that this error was found in a church with tremendous influence on the activity of the miraculous spiritual gifts. As I said before, nothing new under the sun.
I don’t think Dread is saying there is no hope of heaven for believers, I think he’s saying that believers are participating in heaven right now, here on earth and that there’s no other place to “go” when we die. I think it’s the word “go” that Dread takes issue with.
That is to say, when the Lord said “The Kingdom of Heaven has arrived” He was talking about something the people could participate in right then and was not talking about Heaven only.
Xenia, as to your 56, we all agree…well except Dread, who says the Heaven part is nonsense.
But participating in the Kingdom of Heaven while still on earth usually involves persecution and sorrow. It is a preparation for the next phase, which is postmortem. It is a struggle, a podvig.
Josh, I do not think he is saying it’s nonsense, I think he’s saying that there’s more to the Good News than the hope of Heaven.
I sort of agree with him, in an Orthodox way but probably not in his Renewal way.
But Dread likes to speak in riddles.
Agree 100% Xenia. I think all of us, minus Dread, agree with that.
We all agree with that part, Xenia, but Dread has made clear that is not what he is talking about.
it is what John the Baptist said Jesus would do , the ‘lamb that takes away the sin of the world’ will ‘baptize you in the Holy Spirit,
the Gospel is not ‘good news get out of hell free’ …not ever…
—————————————————————-
A good example of not reading ALL that John the Baptist said.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?…. “And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire…. “His winnowing fan [is] in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
AV,
As usual reads scripture through the lens of tradition….you assume John o be preaching hell. I do not. He saw the impending disaster of Israel’s national judgment.
uh…you’re the one who said John was ‘preaching the gospel’, I was refuting you based on YOUR terms and interpretation.
BD,
You might want to temper your comments about others “reading Scripture through the lens of tradition.” You are implying, not so subtly, that you do not, or at least not clouded in your reading.
Tabula Rasa Non Papias
“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
————————————————–
Now remember, hell does not mean hell. That is just tradition speaking. Sort of like eternal does not mean eternal.
What Jesus was saying here really is ‘how can you escape the coming of Titus’ armies in 40 years’
Hey, this is fun!
Making-it-up-as-we-go-AV
(Remember that Unity School of Christianity experience. I left when the ‘reverend’ said one week ‘Jesus never talked about hell’ – Fortunately I had been reading the Bible to know otherwise by that time)
Wonder what Gaddafi is thinking right now?
“but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
unquenchable fire does not mean unquenchable fire, that was cultural. 8)
Unquenchable (like eternal) does not speak to time – it speaks to a quality of fire.
Thank God for Tradition- it prevents people from making it up as they go.
and chaff doesn’t mean chaff, that’s what happens to people who are in the saddle to long.
I had antelope for dinner the other day. It tastes like chicken, which in itself, is a cultural saying. 8)
AV and Centorian,
This is the sleeper verse to this discussion (Thank you Dansk!).
I think it brings balance to this discussion and would like to hear Dread comment on it.
1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
That whole chapter is pretty strong. OF course, Dread already dismissed Paul talking about Heaven, but I didn’t buy that either.
Babs,
I think that you are trying to address an issue that no one holds to. I don’t know who you are pointing to that places the emphasis of the gospel on heaven and hell only or even as a majority point. I have yet to hear a sermon on “get out of hell free.”
However, Joel Osteen seems to have bought into NTW also with his book, “Your Best Life Now.”
You should have stayed with the Lutheranism of your youth – I just skimmed the heading titles of all the writings in The Book of Concord and not a single chapter is about Heaven or Hell.
What Xenia said. 70.
So we can get on with things, love our neighbor, and not waste our energy hypothesizing and speculating.
The work has already been done!
AB – I mentioned that ‘sleeper verse’ and the whole resurrection chapter yesterday.
I will agree…Dread was sleeping on it, as he certainly did not engage on that point.
Mock all you want about factoring in cultural understanding, one cannot fully comprehend the author, the intent of the document, the mindset of the ancient recipient or, mist importantly, avoid “making it up as you go” without knowing those very things and evangelicals & fundamentalists are the mist guilty if bringing their own agendas and applications where many ancient texts never intend.
AV,
Well then , perhaps Dread could give us a commentary on these verses.
Quoting Luke (lol!) in Hebrews 11:16 :
But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
As I read through the links on the endless Calvinism/Arminianism debate and the current discussion I see the same issue over and over again.
Good theology is nuanced and good theologians think and speak in nuanced ways about debatable issues.
We hate nuance…and so we cram each other into boxes labeled with Sharpies whether the labels fit or not.
Also, the mindset that one approaches life, their fellows and the events is purely the choice of the individual, and living within the tension of choosing hope and optimism VS despair is one of the truest hallmarks of a spirituality that views God as the author, perfectly and source of ALL goodness.
Maybe it’s just some of you hate overcast skies when you can light candles & bonfires, then peer into the skies when the fog lifts
In the EO worldview, the “membrane” (for lack of a better word) between this earth and heaven is very thin and heaven and its inhabitants break through into our world all the time. For example, we believe that when we are celebrating the Divine Liturgy on earth we are in a very real sense participating in the same Liturgy that is happening in heaven. This is why we feel so comfortable chatting with the Saints- they are not that far from us. But we who are alive now are the current players in the earthly arena, which is full of sorrow and struggles.
Coming from this POV I thought I saw a spark of a kindred idea in what Dread was saying but I think I might have been mistaken. I’ve now decided that I simply don’t understand what Dread is saying.
“evangelicals & fundamentalists are the mist guilty if bringing their own agendas and applications where many ancient texts never intend.”
mist = most, right?
I think that honor should go to the roman catholic church, hands down……if for no other reason, they’ve had the power for many years to perfect the art……
Xenia,
“For example, we believe that when we are celebrating the Divine Liturgy on earth we are in a very real sense participating in the same Liturgy that is happening in heaven.”
I made the comment to AV a couple of months ago that when we are at the Lord’s Table that we are communing with all saints of all time – both those Triumphant and those still Militant.
He asked me what color hair David really had – so I don’t think evangelicals have a similar view.
And here we have Barnabas
speaking to Abraham’s mindset:
Hebrews 11:9-14
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
I guess we are allowed to long for that “city” or “country”, we just not allowed to call it heaven.
Why are we even on a pilgrimage if this is it? Why am I being made to feel wrong for having a hope beyond this life?
- dwelling in a strange country in a tent Believer
MLD, we all know that King David was a red-head!
Xenia,
“…we all know that King David was a red-head!”
That’s what I keep telling people!
And that’s why I illustrated him that way, check it out!
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1989530612174.99346.1060590856&type=1
AB, great drawings!
Xenia,
That’s about as close as you’ll ever get to seeing Calvary Chapel “iconography”.
Right now I’m working on “The Story of the Resurrection” for kids by Pastor Chuck. And hold your breath on this one, …it’s going to have “pictures” of JESUS in it.
-scandalous! :SHOCK:
David is depicted as a red-head in many icons, too:
http://www.thetemplegallery.com/pages/xmas2004/370_x04/full.jpg
(But he’s usually depicted with gray hair, as an older man.)
AB, I don’t think too many people (except the Mennonites and Amish) object to illustrations of Jesus. When we homeschooled we used a lot of Anabaptist materials and in their Bible story books they never showed illustrations of Christ, just maybe the heel of His foot as he was walking off the page.
Re Frank Turk’s blogpost: One of the commenters responded to the posting and its ensuing comments by saying it was akin to a middle school lunch room. Best description of the Pyromaniacs blog I’ve heard yet…
To me, the open letter format that Frank is employing often comes off a prideful and snarky. And the way Dan Philip continually responds to people in the comment box is often demeaning and sarcastic. Theology is sport and all that matters is that you take others down so you can get a high-five from your followers.
I often wonder how a high level employee of John MacArthur can get away with running a blog that so often seeks to grind people down through satire (which when used well is a great tool) and demagoguery. And then I am hit with a sad realization…JM allows it because he must think its okay…
“they never showed illustrations of Christ, just maybe the heel of His foot as he was walking off the page.”
LoL!!!!
that’s almost as funny as the picture of Jesus with a crew cut!!
Xenia,
We homeschooled, too, and I remember the Anabaptist/Mennonite material. But don’t remember their name anymore (sigh!)
Regarding images, I guess in the Xn world, the Amish/Mennonites are on one end, the EO and Lutherans and Catholics are on the other.
Lutheran, we used Rod and Staff material. We also used the Pathway Readers. I wish I still had those books… there was a sweet simplicity about them that appeals to me.
centy,
so we would do well to likewise avoid the same, oui?
The Reformed consider images a violation of the second commandment.
I agree.
Utterly ridiculous.
Every commentary I purchase in preparation for a new book study is selected based on what the author will bring to my understanding of the history and culture of the original writer to his original audience in the original language of Greek or Hebrew.
That is the definition of exegesis. And so my library is filled with Bruce, Morris, Fee, Lane, Carson and a bunch of others nobody has ever heard of because they spent their lives serving the Lord in a library with pen in hand. And not a dispensationalist among them.
And as a result, the majority of comments as to my teaching involve my sharing such historical, cultural, and linguistic details – which are essential to properly understand the text.
So if someone from the vantage point of left field wants to argue pitch selection with someone actually throwing the baseball, so be it. But to imagine one’s view is superior based on an erroneous assumption concerning lens of tradition and evangelical bias is (to repeat) utterly ridiculous.
Michael, I still remember reading “Knowing God” many years ago and his chapter on that.
Is that a uniform view in the Reformed world?
-g,
true. I will say that like AV, I spend time studying and considering the culture during the time the Bible was written. That is why I am so interested in history, and yet there is a cultural bias of the author to a least consider. It has been said that history is written by the victors, which has some truth to it.
And BTW, the antelope really didn’t taste like chicken, I just wanted to be culturally relevant
peace
home on the range cent 8)
Well Michael, we say the following: Before the Incarnation, no one could depict God. But Christ became Man and assumed a form that can be depicted by means of paint on wood.
If you take the 2nd commandment to its logical conclusion you could not have any illustrations of humans or animals at all.
What do you say about those famous statues of the Reformers in Geneva?
AB, CS believes in the resurrection? Wink, wink
Lutheran,
Yep…it’s in the DNA.
“What do you say about those famous statues of the Reformers in Geneva?”
I thought they were very cool…
I do object to representations of Christ as any such cannot be a representation of His glory…but I’m not real rabid about it.
Willems “Cracked World” post is a little obvious, but good none the less. It’s about how the brokenness of our world becomes the norm over time, and thus, just a part of the scenery. A good call to action to those in Christ.
Scott,
Don’t tell Doug…
Michael, we have rules about what can be depicted and what must not be depicted.
Christ, of course, can be depicted because He assumed a material body.
The Holy Spirit is always shown as a dove.
The Father must never be depicted and some icons that show Him as an old man are considered heretical.
The Holy Trinity can never be depicted except in some kind of metaphorical way, such as the famous “Hospitality of Abraham” icon by Rublev or icons of Christ’s baptism in the Jordan where Christ is depicted as a Man, the Holy Spirit is depicted as a dove and the Father is usually shown as Someone in a cloud or rainbow at the very top.
Sometimes the Father is depicted by a small hand at the top corner of an icon, showing that He’s at work in the scene depicted: The Hand of God.
We don’t have statues at all.
I think Chuck is allowing me to put in pictures of Jesus as a mercy to me.
32 pages of children’s story omitting the main character might give me a heart attack.
Either that or he has stopped caring about corrupting the minds of small children and leading them into idolatry!
Father is usually shown as Someone in a cloud or rainbow at the very top.<<<
Should have said, Someone UNSEEN in a cloud….
Xenia, I know BD a little bit and have heard him speak a few times. I’d say, from my understanding, that your posts in the mid 50′s of this thread are pretty well on track.
But, I could be totally wrong…
Wow, lunch break laughs in this thread!
Dread Head, what the heck?
Michael, I am probably going to get shoved into a box and labeled with a Sharpie tonight in what I fear will be an agonizing meeting with the old tribe. Pray I don’t blow my stack.
London, sometimes I think Dread’s utterances need someone with the gift of interpretation!
LOL….yeah, well…I’m just sitting back laughing at the moment.
You’re doing a fine job as translator
I read the commandment about images to be against bowing and worshiping to such images and not the creation of the images themselves. Shortly after the commandment God gives direction to some craftsmen on which images to make for the ark of the covenant and some other things.
Just think, if you take the commandment to be against all images, you will need to get rid of your lawn ornaments that depict little bunnies.
Xenia,
I’m not sure that Dread as a pastor/teacher would be all that flattered that he would need a translator!
Of course, in the charismatic circles he travels in, “the gift of interpretation” is available in spades so perhaps his riddled utterances have no real need for clarification there.
- It’s all Greek to me Believer (that’s why we need AV-
)
I think Calvin and the Swiss Reformers went way overboard on this one…I don’t like the regulative principle either.
I fit nowhere…
Reuben,
No need to blow your stack… if these are folks you love just love em and wait until they ask before getting into theological stuff.
If they don’t ask, don’t sweat it.
I just saw PH’s post on the Pyro guys…completely concur.
Reuben, if you want to know why people think Calvinists are always angry…the Pyro’s are exhibit A.
RE: Pyro as it relates to John MacAurthur
Johnny Mac doesn’t get on the internet. That’s not to say he would disapprove of what they do. He’s pretty crusty himself. Apparently, though, he lives in a cabin and pretty much abstains from most technology.
Once more for AV,
John accurately preached the Gospel as Jeremiah had prophesied it ….in J31… Jesus as the Lamb of God would ‘take away the sin of the world’ …,and he would give them the Holy Spirit in a mighty baptism…so far I think we agree….and so far this is all Good News .
Traditional Christianity would agree with AV that John was warning them about going to hell when they die….or at least you sound like that…..I would say that John warned them that they would soon DIE in a horrible judgment …. Nothing is said about going to heaven or hell… Something is said about the coming judgment….you and I know all about 2000 yrs of traditionally developed doctrine about an eternal torture chamber called hell… I argue that was not part of John’s preaching but is our tradition about John.
And I continue to insist that the Good News is not heaven but Jesus . Why is this so hard.and why do you all feel soersonally assaulted unles this is the nature of your preaching. I raised this issue yesterday in the context of talking about Brennan Mannings eternal destiny primarily raised by ODM but discussed by many .
I said that Christianity is knowing Christ …and I said the assurance is the witness of the Spirit. Then I got I, passioned about judging people and insisted we preach a Good NewsGospel rather than an eternal destinies Gospel…. Heaven is not the Good News Jesus is and Jesus IS heaven on earth and knowing him is Heaven on Earth and this life is not a death march it is glory to glory.
You guys want me to stop or leave or shut up I can do any of the above ….but I won’t give in AV to your ongoing personal vendetta to ridicule me personally.
Josh,
MacArthur has his own blog and is something of an internet pioneer in terms of using online media tools.
Phil Johnson might do a lot of the content, but MacArthur has a very sharp internet presence.
Presence, yes, but according to Mac himself, he writes and hands it to Phil.
BD,
I think all that people are seeking is clarification.
When you introduce new concepts (or underdeveloped or undervalued ones) to old traditions, patience and concision are necessary.
Now…my question.
If someone dies without Christ, what is their eternal fate?
Babs,
How do you think NTW feels? Everyone has done a piece arguing against NPP. Keep going – convince us.
“If someone dies without Christ, what is their eternal fate….”
Damnation ….which I have never denied
If there is damnation and a hell to shun…how can that be unimportant…even if our concepts of eternal life in Christ are stunted or smaller than we realize?
I like about 1/2 of the Pyro stuff, by the way. Phil is clearly the most reasoned voice of the three, but I like some of what Turk rights, too. I’ll admit that part of that may be due to my sinful nature. I like a good fight. Turmoil. Like to see people get called out. But still, overall I think they are pretty good. Not like I read it everyday, though.
….but I won’t give in AV to your ongoing personal vendetta to ridicule me personally.
——————————————–
In the words of Bill Murray’s drill sergent, Sgt. Hulka, ‘Lighten up Francis’
You are just ticked that instead of being able to play your favorite game of rapture-mock, one-on-one with me, you are heavily outnumbered on this one. After all the crap you have thrown at me on these boards about dispensationalism, you now cry foul? Ludicrous, but I will apologize for offending your tender sensibilities and will try not to do it again.
I agreed with you (several times) on your main point. I do again.
You responded by giving no quarter to my concerns, and replying I was colored by the lens of tradition and I was not being Biblical.
And as an aside, I believe most good exegetical commentaries on John discuss the wide variety of opinion of what John the Baptist meant by “Jesus as the Lamb of God would take away the sin of the world”
Specifically, what did John mean by Lamb of God? Have you read the different views, have you explained just what the Lamb reference meant, and why John the Baptist’s audience would have recognized what he was saying? Or do you just repeat it at face value?
I’m the last guy who rejects 1st century context and understanding, or thinks that repeating trite little interpretations inherited from those in my tradition does honor to the high calling of teaching the Word of God.
Please remember that going forward.
JM is known to be a bit of a recluse, focusing his energy on writing and studying for preaching, but he definitely has been a pioneer of using technology to get his message.
Even the GTY website has a blog on which he often writes…and that blog will cause a bit of a imbroglio every once in a while…JM worked over young guys in ministry a few months ago in short order.
I don’t buy for a second that JM knows not of what Phil is up to, although I don’t think he is aware day-by-day what Phil and associates post. Overall, I think that one of JM’s greatest core values is contending for the faith, and however it might take place at the Pyro blog, JM is happy knowing there are guys out there crossing swords with heretics, emergents and the like. Better that the world be ridded of false teaching, even if it is at the expense of human dignity…
Which I find highly irresponsible. Hoping Alex doesn’t read this, but it could be likened to a certain someone saying, “There really are no affiliations, thus I’m not responsible.”
AV – great “Stripes” reference!
PH, I don’t doubt that. Like I said, I think Mac would approve either way.
Josh, I disagree with your assessment of the most reasonable. I think Frank gets that title. I think Phil is a better writer, but for the person who dares to challenge him, oh man, watch out. Phil is a powerful autocrat who will pull rank in order to squash any dissent.
I do have to laugh…
A few years back I decided I was going to play some theological hardball with Rolph…he was a Calvary guy and I can take those guys in my sleep.
He smoked me like a cheap Cuban cigar.
AV is in that realm…I shall not taunt him, lest he taunt me twice….
Full disclosure: As many here are to CC, I am to GCC…
Josh, yep you did say that John would likely would approve either way. Duly noted.
I think I’ll do what Mac does…I’m going to start posting the controversial stuff under Reubens name…
But, just as I believe Michael has moved beyond constantly taking on the faults and foibles of CC, my life isn’t consumed with taking on my “supposed foe” on a daily basis…there is so much more important stuff to pour our hearts into…
Michael…just like in hockey, get yourself an enforcer!
AV,
I do not question your exegetical prowess …never have …just your conclusions and style. And i did not think we disagreed about Jesus the Lamb ….whatever exegesis you give it It means he take away thesin of the world as per the new covenant promise. I will never quit heaping scorn on Dispensationalism… But that is not personal.
And Michael,
I just think the Apostles got it right in their preaching which was not centered on eternal destiny ….and Jesus pretty much reserved hellfire for the apostate covenant people.
PH,
The good part is that we have maintained and grown as a community while focusing on a variety of concerns.
I’ll still speak when I need to, but there ain’t a lot left to say…
As for 1 Corinthians… The sleeper verse… How is this a torpedo to my position of yesterday or today… I made allusion to this kind of verse…. It made up the result of the Kerygma not the essence.. Paul had to answer questions about eternal destinies because they arose from the preaching… But they were not the center of the preaching.
I have been precise over and over… You guys read me from a traditional lens…. Which is a truncated otherworldly focus.
The apostles so completely preached a Good News message that the people did not get it… So letters answering their questions were necessary….
“The apostles so completely preached a Good News message that the people did not get it… So letters answering their questions were necessary….”
Hmmm…must be a different NT than the one I read. People came to faith in the book of Acts from end to end…did they not know what they were believing in?
1 Thes 1
I’ll take Dreadly any day. He’s got character.
EvenPapias does not get what I say
I did not say they were not saved just that being saved they now had questions about death…so Paul answered…. But obviously knowing about what happens to the dead was not intrinsic. Because it was not THE MESSAGE….. Today it is the message ….but should be the minor not the major
I am bowing out of this discussion. …need to take a course on communication….since I am a foreigner here.
this has been a funny thread
back to where the deer and the antelope play…… 8)
You made me think from a new perspective, Dread.
I think “What happens when I die?” was and is the message, but once that’s settled, Christians need to move on to “How shall I live?”
BD – I do not get what you say @ 142.
Please elaborate and speak plainly, else I think you believe that death was not important to early Christians.
Maybe Dread can tell us how his theology is translated into the everyday life of the believer, that is, those of his flock who believe as he does. (I am assuming they understand what he’s saying better than I do.) I believe that how one believes has a direct affect on how one lives: orthodoxy —-> orthopraxy. (Or “doxy” —> “praxy”)
I know how the doctrine of my Church plays itself out in the life of her people and this enables me to observe belief in action. How are your teachings played out in the life of your people? How would their lives be different from the rest of us?
(I ask this because it might help me understand what you are talking about!)
The concluding paragraph of Karen Spears Zacharias’ endorsement of Brennan Manning’s book seems to fit the tone of this thread…in my puny opinion.
Who said it: “The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.”
@134, good plan!
I was even thinking about running a controversial article! Nothing to do with CC though, so it would get like 8 comments. 1 from Dread, 7 from MLD.
David,
Totally cool ad for your boy to be in…congrats to both of you!
Well, I have never seen Babs back out of a discussion before. Someone get him a cheese burger and a chocolate shake and get him back on the keyboard.
Pineapple Head,
Of course that is a Manning quote, but considering the way Michael painted Brennan’s
failures in the blog post devoted to him, it appears that Manning denied Christ many times by his lifestyle, perhaps maybe causing many close to him and watching the train wreck to lose their faith.
The quote taken at face value seems to be hypocritical and certainly ironic….
I feel compelled to step in here…but feel compelled to stay away at the same time.
“it appears that Manning denied Christ many times by his lifestyle, perhaps maybe causing many close to him and watching the train wreck to lose their faith.”
I’ll go slam my hand in the truck door now…before i comment on this .
Let’s refrain from making judgments on other people’s salvation, shall we?
Hey I just threw that quote in to stir the pot. It actually makes Manning more real to me. He understood Scripture. It tells me he understood grace and truth. By no means a judgment on his standing before God. I’m not in that business.
To me Manning’s teaching and testimony is a perspective on how we relate to God…just one facet of an amazing diamond. His is not the whole story. He has just shined a bright light on one powerful aspect of the faith…
The ” he caused people to leave their faith “card is one of the most overblown canards on the internet.
I have a list of people who’ve done far worse and I doubt that any are now reprobates because of it.
That boils the faith down to some moralistic notion that if a guy keeps his pants on and his glass dry, he’s holy.
The biggest damage I’ve seen done by leaders had nothing to do with either.
Consider someone like Rasputin:
1. He continually preached a loving God
2. He seldom said an unkind word to anyone
3. He gave all his money away
4. He had the gift, apparently genuine, of healing
5. He had the gift of clairvoyance, which is Ortho-Lingo for what you would call the word of knowledge.
But
1. He was a drunkard, especially in the aftermath of a near-fatal stabbing when he drank to relieve the constant pain
2. He was a womanizer
Yet most people consider Rasputin to have been the epitome of evil.
So who knows.
Yeah, I am not into that rhetoric. It may have worked for a few pastors in the past to get people to quit drinking a beer now and then, but that kind of (CC) legalistic religious mentality really pisses me off these days.
Now I am going to shut up before I go off in another Reuben rant.
Rasputin is a fascinating cat.
Papias
I don’t know now what you are asking but I am simply pointing out that questions about life after death seemed to come from the churches as time passed and people who believed began to die… So Paul was the primary spokesman who took up the matter…
But the preaching of the apostles was primarily about Jesus dealing with sin once and for all and imparting the Holy Spirit…
I do not wish to start this up again but simply put obsession with heaven and hell in the proclamation of the Gospel is a post Biblical development … it was not prominent in the apostolic preaching … nor the preaching of Jesus… BUT …and it is a big but…
I believe the main preaching on judgment within the scriptures had to do with God bringing judgment on Israel for her final breaking of covenant by rejecting the Davidic king…
And that would lead to endless repetitive argument…
“Do you know where you will spend eternity?” is not a question you find in scripture or on the lips of the apostles… it is our morphing of the message …. threats seem to be effective …
Babs,
“But the preaching of the apostles was primarily about Jesus dealing with sin once and for all and imparting the Holy Spirit… ”
I think you are splitting hairs – who here or who do you know that does not (as Lutherans would say) believe, teach and confess this?
Since you are one who believes in decision theology, and I am faced with making a decision’ – what difference does this make to the unbeliever… if it is not about eternal destiny?
Surely the apostles preached the message you stated above… but why? Is it something I could just take or leave?
“Yeah, I am not into that rhetoric. It may have worked for a few pastors in the past to get people to quit drinking a beer now and then, but that kind of (CC) legalistic religious mentality really pisses me off these days.”
Oh Reuben, you’re just sayin’ that cuz your current pastor knows a good brew when he tastes one. Fat Tire anyone?
Newcastle at the moment for me thanks Capt.
Paulaner. Ayinger.
Left Hand’s coolers, chillers, and AC are systems I take care of now. Free beer.
Michael,
Maybe you didn’t see the “appears”, “perhaps” and “seems” in my comments.
Those words quoted by Pineapple Head were Manning’s own words.
They just struck me as ironic. That was all.
I said nothing about the man’s salvation. Nor did I say anything about my perspective on christian’s having an occasional beer.
Lighten up people!
AB,
I didn’t hear a “lighten up people” yesterday when I made the comment about some people eating an imitation Jesus.
You clarified so I gave you a pass.
Miller Chill for me…I’m a lightweight.
coloured water tis all that is CK
Reuben,
I remember doing residential service work in L. A. and how frequent the customers would give us free beer (or whatever else they liked to consume). I stayed buzzed for 18 months!! 8)
“obsession with heaven and hell in the proclamation of the Gospel is a post Biblical development…it was not prominent in the apostolic preaching … nor the preaching of Jesus”
BD – Do me a favor?
Go to Blue Letter Bible
Search for heaven. My result were 583 times in 551 verses.
Check out from page 13 to 20. Matt to Rev.
Seems like the subject of heaven was on the mind of Jesus quite a lot. Apostles too.
Not negating the “here and now” approach to Gospel at all. But all men are concerned about death, but alas it does not sting us as it does others.
Fields of Gold Paps
I had the “you caused them to loose their faith” faith card played on me along with the “your the reason they went to hell” card. Which where family members and dear students are concerned was quite effective at ripping my gutz out through my throat. I understand using this, it is effective which has, does, and always will justify its use as an apologetic. For years I believed I was, personally responsible for my father burning in hell. I even had vivid dreams of his screaming and anguish, another gift from the American Evangelical Religion.
Now I also knew cold hearted mean spirited nasty self centered egomaniacs who were quite well versed in the Bible. They used it as a weapon, an offensive weapon. I think of this one lady, very dear women, well young lady at the time just get gutted. She loathed herself with a vengeance, she even put me to shame in that department and that is saying something. I mean these people went out of their way to drop major spiritual A-Bombs on people and then giggle about it later. This young lady left the church and people said, see I told you, see I told you she was not a “Christian”. Of course they would not take one ioda of responsibility about chasing her away. They fawned spiritual hurt and the type, I mean it made me want to wretch.
With me for many years as a Christian was the surety of Going Directly to Hell on the express train. No matter how much Jesus wanted to save you, decree it, God ordained, there was no way something like me would ever enter the christian faith. Now being the degenerate I was I would not “sin” bad enough to get thrown out of Church. I am not kidding that really ticked people off something awful. If I would have had sex with every girl got a few pregnant etc I would have been welcomed with open arms after being thrown out and spent enough time wallowing in the worldly mud. You know I watched an entire Manning sermon last night, it was one of the hardest things I have done. I just could not hear God loved me, it was so against all the things I have had drilled into my head. The constant disgust and loathing God has your the world, and especially you (fill in the blank). I dont understand the need to suck the life out of people then spit them out. Well actually I do understand it, I just dont agree with it.
MLD,
I do not actually believe in ‘decision theology’ … I do believe in faith… which is something other than a decision but is often confused with a decision…
Now I do believe in people mixing faith with the preaching as Hebrews speaks about….
Papias,
Did the research before I came to these conclusions… already know that people care about death and dying and I already know that we preach differently than the apostolic Gospel and I now know that this crowd ain’t buying it
But when the bad guys come we will all be in the same caves sharing bread … so I will lay down his sword … and relent the matter as incomprehensible to my audience.
One thing that is simply true when people KNOW a matter they do not easily see it otherwise.
“so I will lay down his sword … and relent the matter as incomprehensible to my audience.”
now isn’t that condesending. you’ll go farther if you drop the cryptic nonsensical prose and write plainly where people can understand you.
I was pretty plain… twocenty ….
Poor Dread.
Id stick up for ya buddy, but I know how much you hate that
Carry on. Scarily enough, ur making sense to.me
Babs,
“One thing that is simply true when people KNOW a matter they do not easily see it otherwise.”
So, is that why we can’t shake you from your KNOWN position?
Sounds like you got a memo from your Apostle – C. Peter Wagner stating that this is the teaching of the day.
It is interesting that no one will got to hell for leading others astray. Or for drunkenness, or adultery, or even murder (David). “All manner of sin shall be forgiven; expect the blasphemy of the Spirit.” There are those who have lead godless lives, and before death received forgiveness.
Micah 7:18: “Who is a God like You, Pardoning iniquity And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in mercy.”
This is the God I serve.
God is not like me; I am supposed to be like Him. I am so glad because He is merciful gracious, and loving, even to the worst sinner who comes to Him by faith. At any point in life, no matter what they have done. That is the Gospel we preach; that is the Good News.
I agree with Randall (if this is what he meant) No one goes to hell because of sin or bad acts. Jesus died for all sins for all people – (I know a Calvinist who just fainted)
But then I also believe that hell will be populated with people who have had their sins completely forgiven – because of their unbelief.
“and I already know that we preach differently than the apostolic Gospel and I now know that this crowd ain’t buying it”
BD – Ummm, I don’t know how to answer this statement at its face value.
Today is October 21st. Are you all ready?
I hear that the world has been destroyed already on the other side of the international dateline.
MLD,
Nah, I’m still here
I was actually hoping…
You and me both, Cap’n