Linkathon II, 8/28 Uncategorized Sep 282011 Eugene Cho on the Iranian pastor about to die for his Lord. Carl Trueman – the Reformation, its end, its cause (multi-site campuses and virtual pastors). Phil Johnson on a certain superstar pastor (HT to Trueman) Job. (as in the guy) Thabiti critiques the multi-site church concept. James MacDonald explains why he invited T.D. Jakes to the second annual Elephant Room. Rhianna gets told to find God. Mark Roberts: When the web isn’t your friend. Paul Tripp explains hyssop. Farewell to thee/books from dead trees (HT) Would ebooks be the death knell to free access to books? (HT) Jared Wilson on the religious people boogeyman. Living with everybody in dysfunctional members of the family of God. Chaplain Mike looks forward to Sabbath. Moneymoneymoneymoney Dead Sea Scrolls online. Tim Keller; gospel ecosystem; cautions. Ed Stetzer: Should churches have differing worship services? Worship leaders: how to make your music appropriately loud and joyful. 66 Responses to “Linkathon II, 8/28” jlo says: September 28, 2011 at 10:22 PM First jlo says: September 28, 2011 at 10:24 PM Now I can relax and read these wonderful links…….. Thanks BrianD. Reuben says: September 29, 2011 at 5:48 AM That last article has some issues. There are technical considerations that I don’t think he took into account. Having been both the musician and sound engineer for years, I have discovered that more often than not, it is the musicians that make volume go from good to bad. It is almost always a case of musicians making too much volume on stage to “stake their claim” in the pecking order, that ruins it for everyone else. About the best things introduced to worship services from a technical perspective were lexan cages for drums, and In-Ear Monitor systems. By removing as much noise from the stage as possible, moving electric amps off the stage to a room with a mic, things like that, and providing musicians with their own monitor “perspective”, you make it incredibly easy to create decent lower volume house sound. Reuben says: September 29, 2011 at 5:56 AM His speaker consideration is a very right one, and of course I applaud anyone who promotes good gear. I get that some, or most churches simply don’t have budgets for musical equipment, but I say save longer, and buy better. Nobody regrets that. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 6:21 AM There’s also the consideration of what are you trying to produce? Should worship be a rock concert? Do we sometimes way over complicate the assembly of the saints to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs? These are just the questions I struggle with as a worship leader. Maybe an acoustic guitar or acoustic piano could provide adequate accompaniment. Worship shouldn’t be so divided along style lines that an 18 year old feels out of place, or than 80 year old feels out of place. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 6:40 AM T.D. Jakes does make the Elephant Room infinitely more interesting. I mean, what’s the purpose if everyone agrees on everything. That being said, they’ll tap-dance around any real disagreements. They had Perry Noble on and no one even hinted towards the James Duncan harassment. Another lasting impression from the first one is that the respectable guys you’d like to hear more from are drowned out by the loudmouths. Anybody even remember that Greg Laurie was at the first one? TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 6:42 AM Thanks again for the love, BrianD. You must be one of my 3 passers-by . TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 6:47 AM Josh, On the worship music scene, it is something that I have thought about as I ruminate on how to have a church that has a spot for everyone (seems harder and harder now days). Maybe taking some older hymns and uping the music score, making it a bit more musically exciting for the younger folks while preserving the theological beauty that they carry? More piano/acoustic is definitely a good idea IMO, and I absolutely LOVE the idea of a choir. Of course I love to sing, so that helps. Not sure if it’s cricket for the pastor to sing in the choir, but if I started the church I guess I could kind of fit that in. It would be MY church after all (said tounge in cheek of course ). papias says: September 29, 2011 at 7:19 AM Thabiti’s article is good. Multi site churches are from the devil. And this from a SBC’er who is attending a mutli-site church that is extending its brand. We have not yet been beeming any pastors sermons to the other site, so I don;t know if thats part of the plan for the multi site or not. I am taking a cautious wait and see attitude, while hoping for the best. TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 7:36 AM MacDonald’s take on those that dissent with him? “But harsh denunciation is what puts people in the camp of being religionists, unholy, unloving and possibly unsaved.” Wow…..good thing he isn’t harsh…. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 7:46 AM Tony, one thing I try to guard myself against doing is selecting songs based on when they were written. Sounds elementary, but I played a 5 year old song at my last church and got chastised. Now I just try to ask “Is this pleasing to God?”. We end up with a mix of 500 year old hymns, songs from the 1970′s, brand new songs…the whole spectrum. We do have a choir, and they take just as well to the new songs as the old. I LOVE that we have ladies in their 90′s singing their heart out right nest to their great grand children. I came into this church a little broken, very humbled, and just wanting to serve. Instead of looking at the worship and saying how can I get this changed, I looked at it and asked How can we work with what we have? I think we have created a pretty good mix that is organic to our culture and allows each person to express his own voice in worship. Of course this is a process that we continue to work towards each week, all the while trying to challenge the congregation as well. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 7:51 AM Macdonald is addicted to attention. He doesn’t care if he goes $100 grand in the whole on this Elephant Room stuff. This guy has to get some eyes on him. TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 7:54 AM Josh, I think I would LOVE to worship with you guys, it sounds like you have it pretty figured out as it stands. Being open to changing it around is a pretty big component IMNSHO. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 7:58 AM “it sounds like you have it pretty figured out as it stands.” Sounds like I gave off the wrong impression We don’t sound professional, and we don’t put on a fancy show, but we do encourage participation from each and every attender regardless of who they are, how old they are, or what they look like. It’s pretty unique from what I’ve seen in other churches. Martin Luther's Disciple says: September 29, 2011 at 8:07 AM James MacDonald leaves no question about what his conferences are about – and I would assume the same for Desiring God and most of the others “At our upcoming Vertical Church Conferences (and in my upcoming book Vertical)” Note the plural on conferences, in addition to Elephant room and Vertical, they also do University – and the main reason – to sell the latest book. IMO, they are scams, not in the criminal sense, but in the moral sucker sense. But hey, that’s just me. Bob Sweat says: September 29, 2011 at 8:28 AM How many of you want to pitch in so we can send MLD to MacDonald’s Vertical Church Conference? TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 8:54 AM Josh, Nope, I think you gave an excellent impression, I think it sounds like a great way to encourage worship. Em says: September 29, 2011 at 8:56 AM Ebooks should rule as most of what is written isn’t worth keeping and dusting – that said, whatcha gonna do when the grid goes down? it probably will somewhere along the way . . . worth thinking about when you’ve read something that you’d want your children to read – invest in some hard copies along the way . . . or so it seems to me – dunno Martin Luther's Disciple says: September 29, 2011 at 8:58 AM Thumbs up to the Carl Trueman article. TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 9:43 AM Bob, “One question…..” I could see MLD channeling Columbo…. Dansk, In The Valley Of Decision says: September 29, 2011 at 9:48 AM Sending this post while on jury duty. I did not know MacDonald’s even had an Elephant Room, and I eat there all the time. TD Jakes is an absolutely fantastic preacher. Right now, I do not even have a favorite preacher/teacher (I do have a major mancrush on Chris Christie, though). Closest would be, for all his issues: Rick J. Still the one. And even though he is the farthest thing from hip and trendy, I do love to listen to my old-fashioned CC pastor. papias says: September 29, 2011 at 9:54 AM I want to watch TD Jakes put Driscoll in a head lock and say “Who’s your daddy?” Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 9:59 AM I’d pay large dollars to see that. Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 10:16 AM ” I am also excited to hear him state his views on money, which may be closer to Scripture than the monasticism currently touring reformed world.” I’ll bet you are, James. Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 10:24 AM Carl Trueman has written the last article that ever needs to be written on this subject. Wow. “The lack of pastoral care such multi-sites engender is common knowledge. Further, the whole idea seems clearly to turn certain preachers into fetishes. Medieval Catholics liked to obtain the body, or even just a fragment, of a saint for their church building in order to make it an authentic church, or a better church than the one in the neighbouring town (see. the undignified fight for the corpse of St. Anthony of Padua); today we need a virtual piece of a famous preacher in our locale to have access to the magic. ” “Yet these small church pastors can only offer their people hard work and the need for real get-your-hands-dirty commitment. By contrast, the video hook-up brings the fetish to town and makes few demands upon anyone beyond the tech guy, the head of physical plant and the local praise band. In today’s consumer world, there is no doubt who has the more attractive product to sell. Presumably the cancer wards will offer similar video link-ups when members of the virtual congregation lie dying and in need of final comfort.” Believe says: September 29, 2011 at 10:32 AM Elephant Room: Hate to be the clean-up guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltAlbtfoe5Q Xenia says: September 29, 2011 at 10:50 AM Reformed monastics? What? Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 10:54 AM Xenia, It’s just a back handed shot from MacDonald against those who speak against the celebrity pastor system. He’s received some bad pub over his 2 million dollar house… Believe says: September 29, 2011 at 11:00 AM “He’s received some bad pub over his 2 million dollar house…” Yikes! I’m in the wrong business. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 11:03 AM Mark Driscoll says: “Just finished 4000+ word blog on the controversy about TD Jakes & James MacDonald re Trinity. Going online soon..” Oooooh, I can hardly wait. Wonder how he work graphic sex into this one? papias says: September 29, 2011 at 11:18 AM Is that what he meant by “Reformed monastics”? Then him and TD share more than theology….they both like big houses. TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 11:18 AM Not to derail the thread, but I will be going to South Carolina in the near future (Columbia area) anyone have any good ideas for eateries/tourist stuff? If so, let me know over at the open blogging thread, I don’t want to eat up the space here. If not….sniff…..that’s fine…..I understand…. Scott says: September 29, 2011 at 11:20 AM TonyP, anything barbecue… papias says: September 29, 2011 at 11:23 AM Tony, check this place out for me: http://www.mellowmushroom.com/columbia#/store/index/columbia Going to Bob Jones U? Xenia says: September 29, 2011 at 11:43 AM Wasn’t one of the complaints of the Reformers against the Catholic Church the accumulation of wealth and the splendor of the palaces of the “princes” of the Church? In other words, wasn’t there a call for less opulence? Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 11:48 AM Xenia, Yes, and we’re still complaining about that. MacDonald doesn’t want to hear it… Em says: September 29, 2011 at 12:05 PM “Wasn’t one of the complaints of the Reformers against the Catholic Church the accumulation of wealth and the splendor of the palaces of the “princes” of the Church?” that gives me a ponder . . . as we pew sitters lose our comfortable lifestyles (and our savings, too) i wonder if we won’t turn on the celebrity preachers and their call for more $$ cuz we owe Jesus? hmmm – they mortgage the churches and leave their own stuff debt free? one thing is certain the evidence is clear that they have no concept of the Holy God that they claim to represent to the rest of us . . . not saying it’s wrong to be a prudent pastor person who pays off his home mtg out of a well deserved salary TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 12:22 PM FWIW I love books. I have read books for hours on end and never had a problem, I look at a computer screen for more than an hour and my head wants to explode….that being said, since I don’t have a Kindle or iPad or other e-reader, I’m not sure if the eye strain is the same as on a regular monitor…. Anyone? Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 12:32 PM I read a lot on my iPad…it is what I read on and it is where my books now reside. If I can’t buy something in ebook, I don’t buy it… can’t afford to. I had never thought about the issues those articles raise, but they are serious and worthy of much more thought. Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 12:33 PM I never had a problem with eye strain on my iPad…and Kindle is even better from what I understand. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 12:39 PM Nook color is just like reading paper as far as eye strain goes. For me anyhow. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 12:53 PM Just the read the book article. Sounds like people crying about the downfall of vinyl LP’s. Does this guy think e-book is the final destination for the written word? The world keeps turning, sir. Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 1:01 PM Josh, I think there is a point here…as more and more publishing goes to ebooks, what of those who cannot afford ereaders? The libraries in my area are now privatized and operate on limited hours…are we creating a culture where access to knowledge will be limited by income? Tim says: September 29, 2011 at 1:02 PM I received a Kindle for my birthday…I couldn’t be happier with it (even if the Kindle fire was released less than two weeks after my birthday!). I’m even putting my sermon notes onto it & using it on Sundays & Wednesdays. (I do of course still take my printed Bible with me; I just use my Kindle for the notes.) Zero eye strain…it’s exactly like reading paper. Bright sunlight is no problem (I’ve used it during my daughter’s soccer practices), and even the weight of it is less than many books. I haven’t paid a cent for a single book, yet I have 24 pieces of literature, 4 bibles, 15 books of theology, 5 reference books, and even a free game of blackjack. Apparently, I can even check out books from our local library. Love it. Tim says: September 29, 2011 at 1:05 PM Michael – Don’t forget there was a time not too long ago when people could not even afford printed books. The price will continue to come down on e-readers (I saw a kindle advertised for $79 today), and there are free apps for phones, etc. I’m not of the opinion that ebooks will ever truly replace the printed page, but I don’t see a limitation on information based on income. Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 1:11 PM Tim, Well said…but I’m still concerned. My physical library will go to Trey when I die…where will my ebooks go? Xenia says: September 29, 2011 at 1:15 PM My hobby is researching the Arthurian legends and I am able to get many old texts for free on for Kindle, which I read on my PC with the free Kindle software. But there’s lots of books on the topic that are not available as e-books, nifty old musty-smelling books I get at used books stores. For me, it’s hard to do research using e-books because I like to mark up my books and flip from one book to the other, etc. You can highlight passages on an e-book but it’s awkward to flip from book to book, IMO. Xenia says: September 29, 2011 at 1:17 PM In other words, I only use Kindle books if the printed book is too expensive or unavailable. Josh da Squash says: September 29, 2011 at 1:21 PM According to the numbers…access to knowledge has always been limited for the lower income brackets. Richer kids have traditionally scored better on tests, etc. I don’t know that the move away from paper makes that situation any worse. I would assume publishing costs could go way down if traditional printing weren’t involved, which would seem to make info available to even more people. TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 1:39 PM Thanks for the input on the readers. I’m still hoping to get an iPad, my wife is pretty keen on the idea, the lower edge one of course, I keep trying for the cadillac model . Iwouldn’t mind the e-readers, but as with regular computers, what happens if your machine gives up the ghost? All that reading material gone or do you just have a subscription that you can go back in and re-download? TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 1:41 PM Xenia, I wonder if they’ve looked at making a markup ability for the e-reader versions so you could simply mark it up with a stylus as you would a pen or pencil on a real book? If you could mark it up that way would you be more inclined to use it? Michael says: September 29, 2011 at 1:44 PM TonyP, All your books are “in the cloud”, so you can always re download them. TonyP. says: September 29, 2011 at 1:56 PM Michael, Ahhhh…the cloud. Reminds me of the Borg….”Resistance is futile”… Nah, I’m no geek. Xenia says: September 29, 2011 at 2:15 PM Tony, I don’t know about using a real Kindle, but on the PC version I can highlight text and even write notes. But I hate flipping through e-books looking for a passage I’ve marked. I think if I was used to it it would seem more natural but I am used to having a stack of teetering books full of book marks, tea stains, dog ears and highlighted pages and writing stuff out by longhand in a spiral notebook. I’m surprised I don’t use quills and an ink pot. Xenia says: September 29, 2011 at 2:17 PM One thing having ebooks on a laptop is really good for: power shortages. I have a six-hour battery and on a PC the screen supplies its own light so I can read as long as the battery lasts. covered says: September 29, 2011 at 3:08 PM I use a pc, just got an ipad, my cell is a blackberry and I write all my messages in pencil on lined paper because it’s a memorization thing and I’m afrail of losing any information in cyber space. I think I’m old school but willing to grow… randall slack says: September 29, 2011 at 5:34 PM I have lost all interest in “celebrity” pastors. I have rubbed elbows with a few over the years (name’s withheld to protect my own backside) and have seen the ministry go from one of humility to that of willful pride. There are hundreds perhaps even thousands of pastors in this country who labor tirelessly to care for the flock God has entrusted to them. Most have congregations of less that 50. Most work a full time secular job. They seek no notoriety; no earthly rewards. They need no radio program or book selling campaign. Their concern is for those who need to be able to call their pastor in the middle of the night, whose son just got arrested, whose 15 year old daughter is pregnant out of wedlock. Whose spouse was just diagnosed with terminal cancer. Where are the true shepherds? They are quietly, carefully, faithfully tending their flocks. And consider it a privilege to do so. When they die, only their flock will know. There will be not television or radio coverage. No presidents or professors, or noble at their funerals. But they will be richer that all who went before them, for at their funeral will be those of their flocks who will weep genuine tears of sadness and joy that God gave them such grace to have put a man like that in their midst. Martin Luther's Disciple says: September 29, 2011 at 5:58 PM Actually,I may change my mind about the Elephant Room and these other conferences. Here is a preview I found of the upcoming Elephant Room. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aEn8cAZ9K0&feature=player_embedded randall slack says: September 29, 2011 at 6:07 PM I like loud music. Being an old, hippie hard rocker, the soft stuff drives me nuts! “Respect the classics, man!” Eric Hoffman says: September 29, 2011 at 6:08 PM “Maybe an acoustic guitar or acoustic piano could provide adequate accompaniment. Worship shouldn’t be so divided along style lines that an 18 year old feels out of place, or than 80 year old feels out of place.” When I’m 80, that suggestion would make me feel out of place. Bring on the Noize!!! Em says: September 29, 2011 at 6:17 PM speaking as an 80 year old wanna be . . . nothing is more beautiful that a group of saved souls singing a capella to their Lord just sayin Reuben says: September 29, 2011 at 6:43 PM The Carl Trueman article is really, really good. Lutheran says: September 29, 2011 at 8:56 PM Yes. Carl Trueman’s article is excellent. It rocks. I’m thankful I go to a small church “where everybody knows your name.” Where the pastor knows his congregants and spends time with different people in need. Em says: September 29, 2011 at 9:33 PM didn’t realize the cost involved in these web sites until i read the request by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals (linked off of Trueman) for $20,000 to upgrade theirs Yikes! Rick Ritchie says: September 29, 2011 at 11:19 PM I read my Kindle on the treadmill at the gym, which probably wouldn’t work for me with a traditional book. What’s more surprising is that I’m able to mark the books while I’m on the treadmill. And do. TonyP. says: September 30, 2011 at 12:05 PM http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/heavy_petting/2011/09/the_perfect_day.html?GT1=38001 Came across this story…good for us animal lovers… Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.