1 – Tim Keller’s four kinds of people in the world, at Zach Nielsen’s blog (HT: Challies).
2 - Paul Tripp on ministry and whose kingdom one does ministry for.
3 – Collin Hansen answers five questions on the “New Reformed” movement.
4 – Brian Auten’s insider’s view of the Sovereign Grace controversy.
5 – Roger Olson: “Did I kill Jesus?”
6 – Carl Trueman’s word to the conscience.
7 – I found this article by Jason Gray to be extremely interesting and thought provoking. Perhaps you would agree.
8 – Seven things your pastor wants to tell you, but doesn’t have the guts to, says Walter Thomason.
9 – Jared Wilson on God as portrayed in the movie Soul Surfer.
10 – Michael Horton on the “the compatibility of Reformation theology with Charismatic emphases”.
11 – Church mergers driven by mission, reported by Christianity Today.
12 – Dan Edelen: “Just give me the book of Acts”.
41 Responses to “Linkathon 8/24, part 1”
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From the article on church mergers:
“”The new merger math is one and one equals ten,” he said. “There’s a synergy about it.”
Multi-site churches are a key part of this movement, with one in three originating from a merger. However, Bird says the new trend has more significance and the potential to affect far more churches.
“The multi-side model is a tool for the 20 percent of healthy, growing churches in America,” said Bird, research director at Leadership Network. “The merger model is a tool for them and the remaining 80 percent of stuck or declining churches.” ”
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Synergy is the potential ability of individual organizations or groups to be more successful or productive as a result of a merger. By it’s very definition it is antithetical to the Kingdom. Last I checked, denial of self, taking up the cross and following Jesus is still in the Bible.
Not that mergers shouldn’t happen. I know of cases where God is leading two churches to become one. Where I am concerned is the shift in focus. They talk about models, tools and techniques that become trends and then are identified as a movement. They sound more like social engineers and behavioral scientists than God’s appointed shepherd over a flock. It does support what I have been saying for some time that a church can produce enough momentum so that they really don’t need God.
It makes me want to invest more in home churches, but then I could be guilty of same thing. Whenever we embrace the construct rather than The Architect, we blur the line between worship of God and idolatry. Oh wretched people that we are!
We are living in a time of spiritual famine and that reality is obscured from our view because of the abundance of spiritual junk food readily made for our consumption.
No movement on earth has magnified human interpreters to apostolic-like status to the degree of the reformed camp.
Horton is usually interesting but is always tethered to his ‘apostolic’ fathers. Thus his call for near-cessationim theology is humorous and in my eyes anomalous. But I know reformed thinkers will not admit what I assert. They simply function within it’s limits.
Walter Thomason apparently thinks he has more guts than the rest of us… I have more confidence in the pastors around me … there are plenty of lions who are willing to tell the truth.
Other than that I am appreciative of the weekly reformathon… though as soon as I hear the circular reasoning or veiled legalisms I sign off. I do enjoy the intramural debates that can ensue … That is at least an advance on what I run into in renewal circles… All negative voices have to be silenced lest the shy God of miracles be discouraged by our words.
The Soul Surfer movie moved me, it should not have but it did. We should gain no motivation from moral relativistic twaddle that does not fully explain what lost pieces of trash we are have not even a flicker of human achievement. All humans are scum and we need to move along from there. Puke, this lady overcame a tragedy and did great things to inspire others. I never got that myself, if your house was on fire would you care who came and put it out, would you do a theological pedigree on those that came to save your family. Sad to say I know people who would, if you were gay, Mormon, catholic etc they would let their loved ones burn in a second other then let them be saved my the unwashed heathens. What a line of crap. This lady like many overcame and move on, I understand the “relativism” evangelicals fear, well I got news, we live daily with moral relativism. Adults understand this, actually most kids do to.
I would like to see more that inspires then reminds me what a piece of trash we all are and how we loath God and want to spit in His face on judgement day so we can have a jack chick angel cast us into eternal hell. What kind of hope is that? Im inspired daily by parents that care for two disabled kids and she is Mormon, she does not do it to gain kudos from the Big Man upstairs she does it because she loves her kids, That love is from God, if its not, there is no God and we have nothing to fear.
I have seen Catholic families stay by their sick and elderly for decades, daily, hoping against hope that their child / family member would get better but never ever bitter towards God, ever not once. But I am suppose to believe that the creator of this universe will cast these precious people into hell because they dont have all their theological I’s and T’s crossed. That is more psychotic then the drivel spewing out of hucksters like Todd Bentley.
“2. I can’t treat you as more important just because you are rich.”
That is just not an option you always and I mean always treat rich people differently usually with a deep passion if you want to say in the ministry for an length of time. Personally I understand that, they help support the apologetic. I know the Dear Lord Jesus spoke about this in James and other text but Jesus did not have our overhead and that is a daily fact for most, no all ministries, all that Jesus stuff can and should take a back seat to reality. Do I believe that, no but it is very accurate. I find that strange.
– Seven things your pastor wants to tell you, but doesn’t have the guts to, says Walter Thomason.
Sounds like a mistaken ideal of what preaching and pastoring is about. The pastor is one who proclaims what God has given him to share. It is not about rolling people over nor is it about holding back. It is not about having a well informed church on our personal preferences nor is it about keeping people in dark so as to not upset them. The preacher, the pastor is to feed the people was God has given and trust God to accomplish the transformation in their lives. He is to model the example of the good shepherd and care for people and to speak the truth in love and to tarry long with them. If the pastor is so afraid to share things with the people, then perhaps he needs to look at what he is feeding them.
I think most people (and yes, I have met plenty of exceptions) are willing to receive the hard things from their shepherd when they know that he has their best interest at heart and that he really does love them.
I like very much what Trueman said…and it has provoked me to finally add something similar to my weekly message.
Centy,
This one did amuse me, though..”5. You don’t know your Bible from a cookbook.”
Michael,
In many ways Thomason is right, and I did like that comment about not knowing their Bible. It’s up to the pastor to change those things and to put good food. The people will decide how much they will consume. And it is better to draw attention to God’s goodness and how they can partake of it rather than their own imperfections.
Keller’s four types of people is fairly accurate and Helpful as a short concise field manual in dealing with people .
#1 Law-obeying, Law-relying
#2 Law-disobeying, Law-relying
#3 Law-disobeying, Not Law-relying
#4 Law-obeying, Not Law-relying
It seems that I have an abundance of #’s 1and 3 in my world.
Centy,
I think we all do.
We’d be out of work without them…
5. You don’t know your Bible from a cookbook.
What’s the big deal to? Why does it matter if you know your Bible… to an emergent like Thomason? Even if you know it, emergent pastors just distort it.
Perhaps after a generation of “do your own thing” in the emergent church, and a generation of free style Bible study, people stopped reading their Bibles.
I usually amen Edelen, but he fell off the rails with this one.
You can’t read Acts without reading 1 Corinthians and Galatians…and that’s what the church really looked like.
I wonder what his own life looks like if he’s sold out to the exciting, miracle laden text of Acts…probably just like everyone else’s.
Yes I wanted to complain at Edelen … it was a nice confessional … but failing to see the bickering, carnal early church as it really was always annoys me… it was a train wreck with glorious moments.
Michael Horton is off as well.
He keeps talking as if the gifts were only evident by the apostles…and that simply isn’t so.
“He keeps talking as if the gifts were only evident by the apostles…and that simply isn’t so.”
This goes back to the conversations a couple of days ago about the gifts. If apostolic gifts are still available in the same way as the first century, why do the same people claim that the canon is closed?
On what basis do you make that claim, as there is no biblical claim of such?
I too love the “4 kinds of people” taxonomy.
Most of us are a combination of all four types, pressing forward for the detoxifying work of the Holy Spirit.
MLD,
The decision that the canon of scripture is closed was made by the church. Presumably by the apostles of the church (and not the original 12) … since the closure of the canon is not itself a matter foreseen in the scripture.
Further, I still maintain that Lutherans and Reformed folk treat Luther and Calvin as if they were the last apostles.
Babs,
The cannon was never closed, in fact just yesterday God accepted my writings and promised they would be stamped as authentic added to he Bible.
All kidding aside, was the canon really closed or were the ‘known’ books just authenticated? If the REAL 1 Corinthians were found and verified, would it be in or out and how would that be determined?
“Further, I still maintain that Lutherans and Reformed folk treat Luther and Calvin as if they were the last apostles.”
I don’t know about that – many of us get a great chuckle out of much of what Luther said in Table talks.
So what if we had the table musings of the 12 or just more of their personal letters or sermons … Would we canonize every apostolic word?
These matters are boggling away… Authority is the central question of religious faith
Should read, ‘anyway’ not away.
The Orthodox Church does not consider the canon to be closed.
I should qualify my last comment. Some EO people make the claim that the EO never closed the canon. Others disagree.
Farewell, Steve Jobs. You were an inspiration to my entire generation and gave us all at least one company that Americans could be proud of. God bless your soul.
“Again, you can’t connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something — your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach has never let me down, and it has made all the difference in my life.” Steve Jobs.
The connecting dots part… I have carried that with me for some years now.
I am having a rough time with Michael Horton’s article. He says:
“As a Charismatic Calvinist, Wayne Grudem has been used by God to bring the doctrines of grace to many who would likely not have encountered these truths otherwise. I have immense respect for his clear defense of many cardinal doctrines of Christianity. At the same time, the Calvinism-Charismatic bridge goes in both directions and his view of continuing prophecy has contributed to a curious hybrid that in my view cannot survive in the long run. Reformed theology is a system—not one imposed on Scripture, but one that arises from the self-consistent Word of God.”
I know a bit about Wayne Grudem, as I have read most of his Systematic Theology, and listened to most of his Systematic Theology lectures. So I feel a wee bit safe to speak. His experience with the “charismatic” was linked to John Wimber. He learned a great deal from Wimber and attributes quite a bit of his experience with grace and “supernatural” to the time spent learning from Wimbur.
Grudem does not see the conflict between Reformed and Charismatic. I try, and I don’t either. Of course this requires an understanding of what Grudem calls Charismatic. Grudem might give far less weight to Orthopraxy than Horton likes, and I think that is why Horton attempts to dismantle the connection Grudem tries to make.
I am not a fan of Orthopraxic idealism at all.
I do not see incompatibility between Reformed and Charismatic. In fact, I like to call myself a Reformed Charismatic, even though I am still defining what that is, in my own messed up head.
I also wonder if Horton is not attempting to narrow the “Charismatic” to a single issue, in his case, prophesy. That is not quite fair.
This is a topic of interest to me, so it was worth reading the article, but Horton seems to edge on being overzealous for a distinction. I don’t see it. Of course I am not quite as educated as he is. Nobody is going to read all of that, but it felt good to write it down and think it through a bit more.
I like Ryan Couch’s formulation of Reformed Charismatic. I wish he would unload that concept here. It is quite liberating to me, because I don’t quite feel as though I am simply making something up.
“Every church I have ever had the honor of being a part of has considered itself a “loving” congregation. Yet none of them were perceived as such by anyone outside their own membership.”
Unfortunately, this describes both my pastorates. My last pastorate I spent 18 months in 1st John. About a week after I left, a police officer brother friend of mine said that everyone in the community knew how un-loving most were there. He was surprised that I stayed as long as I did.
“It took God employing pastoral hardship for me to embrace the inescapable reality that everything I did in ministry was done in allegiance to, and in pursuit of, either the kingdom of self or the kingdom of God.”
Most never learn this lesson. Ashamed to say how long it took (is taking) me.
Looks like I killed this thread too (I seem to be good at it
)
RS, I have decided that in the kingdom of God, failing first grade forty years in a row, then showing up for school on year 41, is called “victory”.
reuben: i too fail to see the contradiction between reformed and charismatic. in fact, some of these new reformed guys have taught me more about grace and the power of the Holy Spirit in the last year than i learned in 10 years of being in two calvary chapels. my last pastor believed more in the power of the Holy Spirit in the most encouraging and inspiring way. he dared to believe that God would heal people, that God was still miraculous, and that the Holy Spirit could be given full reign in the church without catastrophes of excess. it was the most biblically consistent view of the Holy Spirit i’ve seen in any church i considered myself a member of. and it changed my life.
however, i’m still not “reformed.”
Rachael! Somebody read what I said?!?
I am still learning quite a bit from Reformed guys, but my experience mirrors yours
I have learned 10 fold in a year from Reformed writers what I learned from CC in my life. That is not to say that CC failed, it is to say they are light on doctrine and heavy on application.
Reuben,
Can you explain or elaborate a little as to what you mean by “Orthopraxic idealism”?
Yes I can, when I am not suposed to be switching out duct actuators, so stand by…
MLD,
38 Then He said to them in His teaching, “Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, 39 the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”
41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”
I love the neighbor passages here, because they show God examining two different conditions of heart. One is very upstanding in apparent deed, but the heart is wicked. The other is lowly, but honored by God. This is a recurring them in scripture. God judges the heart. It is the case both Old and New Testament.
The church has for hundreds of years dictated terms of righteousness to the people. People for hundreds of years have done deeds to obtain right standing with the church, and with God. This is religion. Orthopraxy gives you a set list of actions that you will do to obtain right standing before God. However, regardless of what is done, God judges the heart.
I believe this. The opposite of Orthopraxic idealism is a heart that seeks to know and honor God, because it loves God. Deeds may fail this heart, but the heart is looked upon by the God of the universe as golden. Orthopraxic idealism is a tool of religion to earn something. What exactly that is will simply be unknown to God, because there is no earning salvation. It is in my opinion an evil. People work the church and deeds job to pay God, and in so doing, deny the Gospel.
Make sense? Begin poking holes.
Reuben,
If that is the way you define Orthopraxy then I have no problem with what you have described.
However, (you knew that was coming
) that is not my understanding of Orthopraxy – in fact, my understanding comes from the complete other end. What you practice in church, in worship should be in line with your beliefs. The same goes for how you conduct your life – what you practice in your daily life will reflect directly to your belief system.
It is the reason that a Lutheran service is different from a Baptist or CC service – we do not have a “free style” service because of what we see and believe is actually happening in the service and that dictates what we do. Orthopraxy is living out your beliefs.
Here is a book that goes into it more deeply than I can – click on the Table of Contents to get an idea. It titles The Fre and The Staff – Lutheran Theology in Practice.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0758604041/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=711677001&ref=pd_sl_8g18vqymwr_e#_
There is more to this lecture but this clip does show contrasts in world views then ends with how world views can effect public policy, I think this best demonstrates my struggle though I disagree with Dr. Cox on some issues he does bring up some interesting points.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPrdK4hWffo
one thing is small pox was eliminated and that is a good thing.
The Book of Acts piece is inspired. I am hearing more and more people calling the church back to the Book of Acts so we can compare what we have and see if it is authentic Christianity. I agree that faithlessness dominates the American church. We are copers. We are not overcomers. We don’t know how to overcome. Many don’t know how to pray through until victory comes, even if it takes all night. This leaves us weak and easy prey for the enemy.
I also can’t stand what is called Christianity in America. Back in 1989, God told me to stop listening to men and to listen to Him and to read his Word. I gave up following men. I gave up reading Christian books. I gave up most Christian music for almost 25 years except what I consider truly worshipful. I gave up the “scene” and began to follow Jesus.
God took me down some strange paths and took me through some hard times. I almost died once and yet He healed me and made me well. But I learned what it meant to walk with Jesus without all the voices around me telling me how it’s supposed to be done. It was a valuable 25 years in the wilderness and I would not redo it any other way.
My heart aches for people who do not understand who they are in Christ and who do not understand what power Jesus gave us in His name. He said we could move mountains if we did not doubt. We don’t move mountains because we don’t believe we can and yet I have seen God move mountains. For the most part, no one seems to care what I’ve seen and I’ve learned to live with that like I’m some kind of freak. I see so much unbelief around me and I’ve taken it upon myself to speak to it when I see it, to build people up, to tell them that God is greater, and to dispel that darkness.
Oh, Lord, help us. We are so lost. We are so caught up in so many things that really mean nothing.
Judy, excellent!