Open Blogging Uncategorized Jun 082012 I’ll parse this out on Monday. http://www.vimeo.com/43699608 151 Responses to “Open Blogging” Reuben says: June 8, 2012 at 7:34 PM Right off the bat, Bob, “If your motivations are pure, your heart is right, I believe God will bless that.” Horse $#!T. This is a mantra that needs to die. A CC DNA cancer that covers more sins than could be written in ten pages of PhxP rants. My God that makes me mad, to the point that I don’t even want to watch the steaming pile anymore. Reuben says: June 8, 2012 at 7:36 PM Such a loaded bunch of crap, “we have 3000 watching here, another 500 watching there, and hey, it is because this is a gifted teacher…” “We have guys, pastors who are not gifted as ‘teachers’ at those sites, there is live worship…” OMG, I want to pop the mother of corks, and I only watched 5 minutes of it. Michael says: June 8, 2012 at 7:43 PM It’s worth watching…there is value here and a shift in the wind. George Bryson probably didn’t enjoy it… Reuben says: June 8, 2012 at 7:46 PM You think if you say “community” enough, that people will believe that is what you have created? What of the guy sitting 23 rows back who saved for a year for this epic trip to the Mecca who has 47 faithful in the church? He is sitting there hearing the “leaders” talk about multisite churches? This is a good topic to talk about Brian? Reuben says: June 8, 2012 at 7:47 PM I will wade through the thing, Michael. I almost punched the monitor a few minutes ago, I need to cool off. brian says: June 8, 2012 at 9:01 PM I am sort of ashamed of this as it shows my continued apostasy and Loathing of Christ. Back when the Jesus Movie came out and I saw a video about how the Jesus film was being translated into a bazillion different languages. It followed this man on an old “car” slugging up muddy trails in India with an old projector and a copy of the film and a sheet for a screen. I guess in a way he was a “multisite” pastor to. Now to my apostasy I passionately and economically support such pastors for years, I even dreamed of doing something similar. Now that I have grown to understand the american industry better I have repented of such nonsense. I did watch the entire video and am sympathetic to what they are saying, but christian conferences often make me want to light my eyebrows of fire and then put it out with a large stick. But maybe thats just me. Erunner says: June 8, 2012 at 9:24 PM I watched up till the 30 minute mark and will finish later. It seemed Ken Graves told Bob Coy to give Greg Laurie a kiss! If you’re gonna watch this for ammo then you’ll find a lot. Lots of talk of Mark Driscoll. Greg mentioned the elephant room. Bob Coy spoke quite highly about the marriage seminar he did at his church. I understand those are two topics that have been covered here and that they were not highly praised. Talking of a Calvinist without slamming him was good to hear although when speaking of the good stuff taken from either Mark or Calvinists in general it was about technology, etc. So there’s a lot of room for biblical areas to come together on if that’s possible. I like hearing how Mark has sneaked into past conferences. Greg mentioned about some of the criticism he gets regarding his crusades. He said he agrees with it but it doesn’t apply to him. He states he mentions sin and judgment when he preaches. After reading comments about JS and his “conversion” I’m convinced there are haters everywhere in the body. And the sad thing is they usually have blogs and a following. I played free cell as I listened as it was a bit boring for my taste. Hopefully constructive dialogue rules as this and Michael’s future article are discussed. Em's parting shot says: June 8, 2012 at 9:35 PM weell . . . i watched some of MacArthur’s Shepherd Conference . . . i liked what i heard . . . i guess that doesn’t count . . . Coy and Laurie are interesting exhorters (think that’s a clean word), but it’s not about them . . . although . . . i guess it is brian says: June 8, 2012 at 9:59 PM I went to the shepherds conference website went through the list and found “Cant find Dating in my Bible”. Ready to do battle over the age of the Earth, and it was about dating alright, just not age. Im embarrassed. centorian says: June 8, 2012 at 10:32 PM All in all, this conversation has given me reason to be cautiously hopeful. I’m cautious for reasons that I prefer not to address. Laurie and Coy live in a world so different than mine that it is hard for me to consider much of what they say as relevant to the ministry of my church. They are also a bit of a mixed bag and say some pretty strange things one minute and then are brilliant the next. Yet the conversation reminded me of Calvary Chapel of old and that in itself is encouraging. The multi-site segment sounded more like a corporate boardroom than a gathering of shepherds and there were some flawed logic and some contradictory remarks, but much of the rest of the discussion had some good content. I must say a welcome change from last year’s “don’t go away mad, just go away”. I’m thinking through the ideal of how disruptive an all or nothing mentality can be to the kingdom. It’s a shame some people are blind to that concept. TimBrown says: June 8, 2012 at 11:36 PM To paraphrase Tolstoy – functional families are alike; every dysfunctional family is dysfunctional in its own way. ‘Whatever Happened to Gilbert Grape’ was a brilliantly told story of a dysfunctional family that managed to… well, function. Dysfunction is to be understood within a context – and here the context is family. Family means many. It is a rather simple task to focus on the weak link – the loony son, the indifferent sister, the disabled mother. It is common to look at the many in the family through the lens of just one and paint the whole family in just one color. There are many in the CC movement and the voices aren’t uniform, but that doesn’t mean dissent and division. A lot of the pastors were refreshed at the innovative thinking and wider relationships that were given voice to in the featured video. There was the discussion about who is going to succeed Pastor Chuck – who is going to be at the top? For many guys, it just doesn’t matter. Pastor Chuck may be at the top, but Christ is at the center – and for this we are truly grateful. Tim Brown, Pastor CC Fremont, CA brian says: June 9, 2012 at 12:30 AM You know Pastor Brown that is a hope, my understanding of the faith as expressed in the modern American Religion is that we are all alone. We agree, as long as it is convenient to work together as long as it is convenient and not one nano second later. The modern apologetic was one of pragmatism, efficiency and above all success. Apart from that one cant know God if one does not produce such fruit, always and every second. When one does not, one is useless and should be cast out. The family motif often spoken of escapes me to be honest, that really never was much of an option in my experience. We are above all autonomous and at our best anonymous. I see your heart and it is a hopeful view of the faith, at times in weakness I share it. Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 4:19 AM Wow. I thought the Panel Discussion was GREAT. Laurie is a good guy, and (hate to admit it) I am really liking Brian Brodersen. If that is the Group that leads, CC will go in a good direction, IMO. Even though I don’t like the multi-church sites, the explanation was helpful. It’s a pick your poison, hugh “big box megachurch” or break into smaller pieces with onsite pastors & worship etc. I agree with BB that it’s an issue that is left to opinion. Coy is likable and he seems sincere. He’s certainly popular in Florida. For as big as his church is, I hear very little bad stuff over at the blog. Laurie and Brodersen….wow, like them a lot…and their moderation of Bryson’s anti-Calvinist/Reformed crusade was very clear. They did everything but mention him by name (though I did on the #ccspc thread ) Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 4:24 AM A lot of what was stated at this year’s CCSPC was pretty darn good. A lot of smaller guys and a lot of younger guys were given a platform…and much that I heard reported on the twitter feeds was very good. Brodersen is the anti-Bryson. He comes across as very intelligent, thoughtful, balanced and secure in himself (a quiet confidence). I like him. He comes across very well, like he is just looking to be himself and serve the Lord. Laurie is Laurie, he’s always been a good guy, still is, IMO. Coy lays it on a little thick. I think he likes hearing himself talk, but he is funny and if the worst thing is he enjoys his time to speak a little too much, then that’s not the end of the world. Sounds like he helps a lot of folks with all the money he collects through his CC. Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 6:09 AM http://blogs.christianpost.com/voices-in-my-head/calvary-chapels-brodersen-laurie-and-coy-set-new-tone-for-the-movement-10293/ Hear here says: June 9, 2012 at 7:29 AM I totally disagree. It’s a rebranding set off by all the negative press. Like an old broken car with a new Macco paint job. centorian says: June 9, 2012 at 7:39 AM TimBrown, I think who is “at the top” matters to a great many guys. I heard that type of rumblings from certain guys for years, some of them may or may not surprise you. I think Chuck is aware of that and is wise to not think in terms of one successor. For all it’s good, bad, or indifference, Chuck Smith and the current ethos cannot be duplicated, nor should it be. I whole heartedly agree with you Tim when you describe Calvary having different voices that aren’t uniform. There is room for some latitude in certain things,and non conformity shouldn’t be interpreted as dissent and division, particularly in a movement that considers itself as independent as we do. Michael says: June 9, 2012 at 7:41 AM Got word last night that a friend had died of a massive heart attack. I hadn’t seen him in a decade… he was from a different time of my life and he was still living in that time while I had to move on. He was a decent fellow, a lonely man and an easy mark for those who would use him. He was a big hearted man so the combination of his loneliness and the largeness of his heart meant he was used a lot by the kind of people who can sense such weaknesses in others. He died without the Lord, as we say, thus we say he entered into torment with his last breath. As if the torment of this life wasn’t enough… Actually, I can’t say it…won’t say it. Theology is really simple until you actually apply it to reality, as long as it stays on paper and only incarnates itself in notions of blessings and heaven. Applied to people, it’s not so simple. Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 7:46 AM Centy said, “and non conformity shouldn’t be interpreted as dissent and division, particularly in a movement that considers itself as independent as we do.” Yes. If the Movement is truly “independent” and there is no authority or responsibility for CCCM/CCOF etc like Chuck Smith has made crystal clear publicly many times now…then lock-stock conformity and expecting it is against what Chuck has clearly stated. If you believe Smith’s recent words, then CCSP’s must adhere to the message: There is freedom to move about the Cabin…and there is no Central Authority, just a loose affiliation of guys who have a fondness for CS and the origins of CC and the style. That means diversity and differences of opinion are to be expected and allowed w/o the Bryson Inquisition etc. I do hope, however, that some of the leaders can reach a Consensus on some basic things like Financial Transparency, Standard Practices to help Protect Kids and some sort of CC advocate to hear beefs and try to mediate grievances. Pipe dream, but as Greg Laurie said, “better to try and fail…then not try at all”. Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 7:47 AM Sorry to hear that Michael…and I “get” what you’re expressing. Bryan Stupar says: June 9, 2012 at 8:01 AM I went to the SPC this year and had a good time & great conversations. Reuben, in your #1,#2 comments you sound very angry (& violent)…why? I watched bit of the panel here (I had to leave before this was done at the conf.), and will watch the rest later…I liked it. Sure these guys are jokesters as they have many years of friendship under their belts. (I get the same way w/ people I’m comfortable w/ and haven’t seen in a long time). But my initial take away is “seek God for how He wants to reach a particular area. It may end up looking very different than previous generations, and this is okay”…this is good, no? As a side, the tables (and store) had a broad arrangement of great books ranging from those by IX Marks (M. Dever) to Driscoll and Keller’s books on Marriage. I was happily surprised (kudos to the one who oversaw that). DA Armstrong says: June 9, 2012 at 8:23 AM Finally watching this video. Here’s the things I think. 1. As much as I’m opposed to multi-site church and mega-church, the group did explain what they are doing well and I wish them well. 2. The distinction between teacher and pastor really irks me. Mainly because I’m pretty sure that they all would accept that the Bible calls the pastor and teacher one person. Secondly, does that mean we can have great teachers with no pastoral heart and we want those people to teach us? (I’ve found a few of these pastors running around). 3. I did like Greg’s financial accountability. This should be standard for ministries as they grow. Bryan Stupar says: June 9, 2012 at 8:25 AM Broderson is very balanced, open-minded and good listener/leader. I have much respect for him and would be happy to see him/someone like him lead CC. centorian says: June 9, 2012 at 8:42 AM Sorry to hear of your friend, Michael. Bryan Stupar says: June 9, 2012 at 8:44 AM Michael, I’m sorry to hear about your friend who passed. Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 8:55 AM Brian Stupar @21, “Reuben, in your #1,#2 comments you sound very angry (& violent)…why?” I will come clean here for somewhat of an explanation. I have just watched another church implode. I am watching people suffer as a result. So my attitude is in the toilet these days. I admit, I am still reluctant to watch the entire thing. Starting out a “Panel Discussion” with multi-site churches is totally incompatible with any semblance of reality. Because two guys have zillions going to their church, and want to accommodate the zillions with their “gifted teaching”, and speaking this to a room of pastors who on average have 150 attending weekly, (depending on your source, this is as small as 75), this does not encourage, or help the predominate population of pastors in CC, or anywhere for that matter. This is incompatible with the pulse of the movement entirely. Completely. It is stark raving mad to think this is a help. So what this says to me is simple. CC still has about zero touch with reality. Nailing down a theology or hermeneutic is still alien to the movement. They want to defend what some in the movement question, on the big stage, as if it needs to be done. There are hurting pastors and churches, some of them are failing, but multi-site churches is really a topic for discussion? REALLY? I am sorry to the blog for jumping to judgement. My angst stems from watching perpetual failures, simultaneously watching perpetual delusions. The reality for Greg and Bob has zero to do with anything but themselves. This is not representative of a pastors heart. This is representative of building empires, and boasting in such, covering their collective tushes with, “Its done with the right heart…” Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 9:01 AM Reuben, did you listen to the whole thing? It does get better after the multi-site explanation. And, even the multi-site explanation was probably necessary to clear the air and give their side of things as to “why” they do it. Like it or not Laurie and Coy are Big Guys and many follow them…better them than some of the other guys in CC. Brodersen is the one who really stood out, IMO, in a good way. CCCM, under his leadership, really isn’t pushing for more, more, more…BB sounds very pastorly and concerned about the people at CCCM and the responsible tone he expressed on the “reformed” issue was telling (and good). Sarah says: June 9, 2012 at 9:13 AM Michael, I am so very sorry, my friend. I tried to come up with something comforting to say, but all I can say is my heart breaks alongside yours….praying for you this day. Erunner says: June 9, 2012 at 9:23 AM Is there a possibility multi sites are personality driven? Is this good or bad? If you open a satellite 20 miles away are you guilty of importing people from existing and established churches? Is there an alternative to multi site? Who kidnapped Alex?? Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 9:26 AM E, I went forward at a CC Altar-Call this last weekend in my locale. Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 9:26 AM …just kidding. TimBrown says: June 9, 2012 at 9:28 AM Reuben @ 26. I can only respond personally and not as a rep of CC. CC Fremont averages about 275 on a Sunday morning – so I am a small fish in a big pond. Will I ever have to think about multi-site for the church I serve? Hardly. But here is why I am interested and why this discussion is relevant to me. Intellectual curiosity – what’s going on and what is the theological and Biblical thinking behind it – how is pastoral care being thought through? Spiritual credibility – It seems to me, in the way it was presented, that this was more than two guys wanting to expand their empire, it was two,guys being invited into certain areas by those already relating to their ministry and the video venue is the medium being utilized. In other words, it wasn’t strategic, but organic. The rationale for video venue has been amply explained in many articles and interviews. It appears as if the issues of incarnational pastoral care have been given proper attention and provided for. For me personally, the verdict on the video venue is about 10 years out. I am encouraged, even though this has no immediate application to my situation. What may be seen as stark raving mad by some, I see is stark raving Spirit led! I am 59 years old and very excited about the unfolding ministry opportunities in the years ahead. There was much encouragement for the small church pastor – we were not ignored! As for the panel discussion being irrelevant to those in attendance, I’m sure the hundreds and hundreds of pastors who attended this voluntary workshop would disagree. The overwhelming vast majority would think peculiar your comment that these men are egomaniacs building personal empires. I am proud to be associated with such forward thinking men. Tim Brown, Pastor Calvary Chapel Fremont Erunner says: June 9, 2012 at 9:29 AM Alex, Hey! That’s how I came to faith. Glad to see your contributions. Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 9:35 AM Me, too E I pretty much prayed the sinner’s prayer every Sunday hoping my salvation would “take”. I couldn’t resolve why I kept sinning all the time, now I just accept the fact I’m a sinner in need of God’s mercy…and God has a way of dealing with the big stuff as needed. Erunner says: June 9, 2012 at 9:41 AM I had problems at the beginning wondering if my salvation was legit. With so many calls for rededication and some legalistic stuff I was taught early on I didn’t know where I was spiritually for a time. I lived off of performance and feelings which is a recipe for spiritual disaster. Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 9:56 AM Greg says, “We become married to things, and we become ridged, and we need to be flexible.” Good! covered says: June 9, 2012 at 9:58 AM Brian your #23 is right on. I found it interesting that Broderson said he plans on “pastoring” cccm. Is it possible that the door is open for someone to lead the movement other than the pastor in Costa Mesa? I believe that Chuck’s successor is known by Chuck and if that’s correct, he’s wise not to share that at this time. It was great to hear Keller and even Driscoll get an honorable mention. The days of thinking that CC is the only tribe worthy of the kingdom are gone and that’s a healthy change. I especially enjoyed the honorable mention as Bryson hopefully realized that he’s picking a fight that he can’t win. Based on the video, there’s hope for the future for CC. There are good men available to lead provided they are open to change. I hope for good things for those good men who shepherd for the right reasons like Centy and many others but I’m also grateful that the Lord moved me away from the dove. Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 9, 2012 at 10:01 AM I though the panel discussion was pretty mild. It reminded me of corporate conferences I went to for 20 plus years. Get the successful guys up there to testify that success is only one step away. One must remember they weren’t speaking to us, but to a specific crowd and they used the language that you and I may not fully understand but the crowd did. In otherwords, the concept was fine. I did take issue with a couple of comments / thoughts. 1.) Someone above noted the clear distinction they made between pastor and Bible teacher. My ears really perked up when they said that. On the other hand, it is the reason that I do not have a problem with their multi site churches – when they are in the pulpit / on screen, they are not preaching a sermon – they are teaching the Bible. And Just like any other teaching endeavor, they might as well pack in as many people as they can. I see what they do in that time no different than a teacher teaching chemistry. 2.) They joked about it a little later, but when Bob Coy called the word of God his product, that was telling. He doesn’t tamper with the product… just the packaging. This tells me that THEY are in the business of making Christians – that they have to do it, because the biblical way doesn’t work and needs to be repackaged. Our job is to just speak the word of God, untampered, and it is the Holy Spirit’s job to make Christians. This is a big difference in our traditions. 3.) Greg Laurie made a great slight of hand. When he was speaking of essentials, he said that Acts 2:42 “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” – but he does not (and I would imagine the others on the panel either) break the bread whenever they get together. Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 10:07 AM Greg learning things from the reformed “movement”. Good. Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 10:10 AM Bob, “We can build a wall, or build a bridge.” Excellent. Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 10:15 AM Brian, “These guys are not our enemies, they are part of the Body of Christ.” Bravo. Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 10:18 AM That was absolutely not the response on Social Justice I expected from Brian. At all. Em says: June 9, 2012 at 10:28 AM MLD, amen to your point #1 . . . i think . . . never sure . . . we need these men gifted with strong personality and dedication to God, – while they, perhaps could be, they are not pastors to flocks, yet they may be teachers with something to say to us all . . . if everyone was like me, all they’d need would be a radio, tho but the Church is designed to function in small community, i think – with everyone responsible for “rightly dividing the Word . . .” 2 Timothy 2:15 Em says: June 9, 2012 at 10:45 AM FWIW – the esteem that these men all have for Chuck Smith is amazing (min 43) Spurgeon? hmmm, yet i don’t know how one could argue against the fact that Smith was the man used by God to reach a break away generation Reuben says: June 9, 2012 at 10:52 AM Chuck’s statement, “I believe that Christ is the Head of the Church.” Folks, that is out of the ballpark stuff right there. I had the “come to Jesus” with three pastors last week, attempting to emphasize that very point, feeling almost as though peoples actions reject the very notion that Christ purchased the church with his own blood. “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it.” If Chuck’s statement there sticks, good on Calvary Chapel. It will change everything with that perspective front and center. Alex, you were right. The multi-blah blah was a good starting point into other things. Fly on the wall says: June 9, 2012 at 10:57 AM I see 3 priests of the whore church of Babylon serving the god of mammon… If this is true Christianity we are all doomed! Look cool, talk cool, be cool and the world loves you! Alex says: June 9, 2012 at 11:01 AM Fly, the “world” loves Joel Osteen. I don’t think the world likes Laurie, Coy or Brodersen very much. Wall on the fly says: June 9, 2012 at 11:10 AM I love nuanced argument. London says: June 9, 2012 at 11:13 AM Flies are not really known for the keen visual skills. London says: June 9, 2012 at 11:15 AM http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&tab=wi&q=fly%20sight&sa=N&biw=320&bih=416#i=9 Fly on the wall says: June 9, 2012 at 11:26 AM London, Your sarcasm is equal to greg calling bob the pope… There is always truth in sarcasm! It is true that a fly does not see well but I am not a fly nor am I the pope… Em says: June 9, 2012 at 12:05 PM Fly, agreed, most would see those guys as cool, i.e., relaxed and comfortable in their own skins – question is are they worth a hearing? – that responsibility falls on the hearer and the hearer’s motivation – do you listen to hear Christ or to learn how to “act?” Reuben's Wife says: June 9, 2012 at 12:32 PM BB said “We need a good church there” Speaking of the UK. Umm….Hello! They do it is called the Anglican Church. If one were to have been blessed to have heard the sermon The Bishop of Canterbury spoke at the Royal Wedding last year then one would know with out a doubt that they have an excellent Church. I thought it was the most biblical, profound, and amazing sermon I have ever heard. Now, looking back on that sermon realize I began to change my mindset, my knowledge of God, and many other spiritual hangups I had that day. Domino effect has resulted since. Just because they don’t have a huge CC following over there does not mean they do not have a good church. People need to remember this….England is the mother of Reformation. If it were not for the blood spilled over the reformation CC would most likely not exist today. Have some respect. A lot of people don’t go to church in England. A lot of people don’t go to church in the USA. I bet for the same reasons. Anyway my two cents. And go watch Lady Jane. Em says: June 9, 2012 at 12:58 PM Reuben’s Wife, agreeing with #53 . . . i noticed his exclusionary use of ‘we’ also . . . it keeps popping back up in Christianity – is the Body of Christ divided into ‘us’ and ‘them?’ like the arm and the neck could function on their own? . . . that’s a creepy church view Em says: June 9, 2012 at 1:16 PM Pastor Tim Brown, ” I can only respond personally and not as a rep of CC. CC Fremont averages about 275 on a Sunday morning – so I am a small fish in a big pond.” “…anthropologist Robin Dunbar . . . has found that each primate species tends to have a typical social group size . . . .. Research has shown that 150-200 people are the number of people . . . one can keep track of, maintain a stable social relationship with, and would be willing to help with a favor . . .” M. Gazzaniga, “Who’s in Charge?” pp 149 -150 a book about science groping with accountability – with the mind v brain i suspect this smaller congregation is God’s perfect design for His local churches – probably shouldn’t brag about having a really big, probably dysfunctional, church TimBrown says: June 9, 2012 at 1:21 PM Em @ 55. Thanks for the stats. I have discovered that dysfunction isn’t a dynamic of size, but of human nature. Size only multiplies those with human nature. Em says: June 9, 2012 at 1:35 PM TB, then comes the questions of manageability, and accountability perhaps? Erunner says: June 9, 2012 at 1:36 PM Tim, Thank you for dropping by and sharing. TimBrown says: June 9, 2012 at 1:45 PM Em @ 57. Yes, and this is true of a church 15 in size or 1500. The need doesn’t change, only the scale of the need. You can have a poorly managed church of 15 and a well managed church of 1500. And yes, if the stat you reported is near accurate, and one man can manage 150-200, the multiplication of eldership, leadership, etc. can very well provide pastoral care for a large and growing flock. So, using the reasoning of the article you reported, the ideal size of a church is more determined by the quality of its leadership than actual raw numbers. TimBrown says: June 9, 2012 at 1:58 PM Erunner @ 58. Thanks – I have been an on/off reader for years. I’ll read a little and then a little more months later – and so on. I was in the session with the three men and read the opening comments and thought I would share my perspective. There are good men in every layer of every movement and there are jerks, too. Unfortunately, it’s the jerks that help form the persona of a movement. I look at it this way – many scan the summer sky for falling stars. We would lay on our backs at a mountain lake under the canopy of the Milky Way and watch for them. Some were spectacular – others not so. But what we failed to notice were the millions of stars keeping their place and faithfully shining on. Like every movement, CC has its falling stars. Like every movement, CC has its vast center core shining on. Lutheran says: June 9, 2012 at 2:00 PM ‘Like every movement, CC has its vast center core shining on.’ I’m sure that’s true. Good to see the big picture — in everything! Erunner says: June 9, 2012 at 2:41 PM Tim, There seem to be jerks everywhere and that’s gonna continue. It’s a difficult thing to find a church home these days. We thought we had recently found one but the efforts to appeal to the world crossed the line and left us no choice but to leave. It’s difficult at times to be optimistic when Skip Heitzig is doing so well and Bob Grenier is allowed to be a pastor. I realize they don’t represent all of CC but I’m one that hopes a mechanism will come that will address men who abuse the pastoral office. At the same time I know many CC pastor’s who I admire deeply. They represent the best of what I believe any movement has to offer. I’m so tired of schisms in the body. If I were to hear another pastor refer to seminary as cemetery or poke fun of the leaders of some denominations I’m afraid I’d bull rush the pulpit. We’ve had get togethers in the past for this blog and there has always been a good mix of people attending. And we had such marvelous times together. We were able to focus on what we have in common and enjoy one another’s company. I realize there are some that see CC as apostate and others who seem blinded by either pain or hate. Some would love nothing more than to see CC disappear from the face of the earth. I’m hoping for good things now and after PC is no longer with us. I hope more CC pastors will feel safe enough to come and dialogue with us. If they have ears to hear they will be sensitive to the plight of those who have been hurt by a CC and God willing healing can take place. I’m so tired of the infighting within Christ’s church. Again, thanks for dropping by. Babylon's Dread says: June 9, 2012 at 3:04 PM Sorry Michael, The story of your friend who died… it is that time of life …when death becomes a closer subject. On another hand… I saw that Bill Johnson of Bethel was bestowed an honorary doctorate … I could not determine where it was from… but Pete Wagner and Che Ahn were involved so it may have been as imaginary as honorary. Still in terms of accomplishment and knowledge it can be justified…but the old boundaries are giving way. Em says: June 9, 2012 at 3:10 PM Pastor Tim, i appreciate your perspective – thanks for the response – as you have guessed, i’m thinking small churches are good, but i’m not claiming authority on the subject at all Em says: June 9, 2012 at 3:10 PM Pastor Tim, i appreciate your perspective – thanks for the response – as you have guessed, i’m thinking small churches are good, but i’m not claiming authority on the subject at all Em's parting shot says: June 9, 2012 at 3:15 PM as of right now my #64 posted 2 times? that hasn’t happened in a long while . . . don’t mind doubling my “thank you,” but i could have done that in one post Scott says: June 9, 2012 at 4:05 PM I watched the whole video. Thanks for posting it. Was very sad to see how sick Chuck is. Scott says: June 9, 2012 at 4:25 PM Also, I might add that I really appreciated the spirit of all 3 men who shared from their different perspectives, I learned a lot about each man listening to them in that venue. There’s no need to appoint an official replacement to Chuck Smith, I mean this isn’t exactly an Elijah/Elisha moment. Chuck himself affirmed that Christ is the head of the church and that he envisions a plurality of leadership input for the Calvary Chapel movement after he’s gone. In fact, it’s already happened in my opinion. The movement as a whole is very well represented and is in good hands if men like Greg, Bob & Brian are involved. TimBrown says: June 9, 2012 at 4:36 PM Scott @ 68 – I am in full agreement. If they represent the senior leadership of CC – the spirit, the tone, the mood, the perspective, the vision, the appreciation for the whole body of Christ they evidenced – will serve as a righteous rudder for the waters that lay ahead. ( |o )====::: says: June 9, 2012 at 4:46 PM Michael, Major cyberHug Linnea says: June 9, 2012 at 5:35 PM Michael, I’m so sorry. Vast wisdom in this statement… “Applied to people, it’s not so simple.” Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 9, 2012 at 5:56 PM I am glad Babs brought the topic of the modern day prophet into the conversation. I think the guy in the video here, has the right response to these ‘prophets’- 5 min video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Ly6ItuDIs&feature=share btw, I hadn’t noticed before, but catty corner to my office, on the other side of the freeway is the International Headquarters for Binny Hinn. Captain Kevin says: June 9, 2012 at 10:56 PM Michael, I’m sorry to read about your friend. I still struggle some with my mom’s death, knowing that she spent her life mostly indifferent, occasionally hostile to Jesus. Apple of His Eye says: June 10, 2012 at 12:54 AM If Chuck Smith had screens up in many locations back in his early days, perhaps Greg Laurie and Bob Coy’s teaching abilities would never have been developed….I’m just saying…. These men need to be actively training other men to teach, and letting them teach….giving them the full opportunity they themselves were given…. I feel a little embarrassed for them, watching what I could of the clip…I don’t think they see what others see….May the younger, newer pastors not be intimidated by them…..I love all of the pastors….I appreciate Greg Laurie espeically for how he has gone outside CC for insights, and also for the pain he’s endured in his life….However, I pray he also would see the value in seriously training up others, as Chuck did….. No matter who we are, or who we think we are, human nature is subtle, deceptive….The longer we’ve been a Christian, the easier it can be to spiritualize behavior that may not be truly wise… Tim Brown says: June 10, 2012 at 8:10 AM Apple Eye @ 74 – both men continue to train and send out other men to plant churches. Video venue isn’t the only tool in their bag. Young pastors (and older pastors, I might add) can be intimidated by a myriad of things. From where I was sitting (and do sit) the younger pastors are very encouraged by these men – their vision, their passion, , their genuineness, and their embrace of emerging technologies to get out the message of the gospel. Wisdom has to be contextualized. The question for the video venue isn’t a question of morality, but one of strategy. Morality is a question of right and wrong, strategy is a question of wisdom. What is wisdom for them might not be wisdom for me (and vice-versa). Alex says: June 10, 2012 at 5:24 PM Tim Brown, you’re a pretty thoughtful dude. I am agreeing w/ much of your take fwiw. It’s an agnostic issue (the video thing). It’s not the ideal, but people want to see and hear who they want to see and hear…and it’s a better option (or at least a push) to piling people 20,000/30,000 deep in a mega big box. I think the mega church and the satellite video campuses are more function of the lay-people/audience/non-member members than it is the pastors. The masses like the Stars. It’s human nature. Just how things are. Alex says: June 10, 2012 at 5:25 PM …better they go hear a message, even if it’s on video, than not go at all, IMO. centorian says: June 10, 2012 at 5:31 PM Tim Brown…. I’ve really tried to stay out of this one, but I think there are other things to consider. I understand the ideal of contextualization, however, it must be recognized that unwise choices leads to sin. Morality and wisdom are strongly connected in scriptures. I think the multi phenomena is an indication that America loves celebrities and the church is no exception. I also think it will get bigger before the ideal loses it steam. I understand that some of these multi-sites are a response to what was already happening in the churches. I’ll buy the argument, to a point, but why should we be so ready to accommodate people who drive past many good ( Ok, I assuming, but they can’t all be bad) churches so they can hear they favorite spoke person and fufill a vicarious need in their lives? How many people are enough in our churches? It really looks like the answer to that is the same to the question how much money is enough. The answer for both appears to be “just a little bit more”. Tell my why Orange County needs multi-sites planted there instead of churches that have pastors who live with and interact with the people? Are a mass of people commuting to Riverside from Orange County or flying each weekend to Seattle? Are these guys just so much better than we are as pastors that we should buy a screen and join their movement? centorian says: June 10, 2012 at 5:33 PM i was posting my comment as Alex was posting his… We agree… Bob…. 8) TimBrown says: June 10, 2012 at 5:46 PM Alex @ 76 – great point: the mega-church is more a function of the laypeople. Yes, it’s almost silly to say it, but a mega church would not be a mega church if it weren’t for all the people! As far as the masses loving the stars – yes and no. I think that maybe they go the first couple of times because the pastor is the coolest thing ever to stand behind a pulpit and they have a card reader scanner for Children’s Ministry check-in that makes them feel very secure. But somewhere, value has to kick in. Somewhere, their soul has to receive some sort of help and solace, insight and encouragement. I can’t imagine someone attending a church for the sole reason that the worship team is really loud and the pastor wears skinny jeans. Are mega church attenders mere groupies? TimBrown says: June 10, 2012 at 6:04 PM Centurion @ 78 – great set of questions, none of which I can answer. Your questions seem to be being answered by the people creating these very dynamics. As Alex brought up, size is a function of the people, but the multiple venues are the design of the leadership of those churches. Am I ready to condemn the video venue? Not yet. Personally, for me, I think the verdict is about ten years out. I do agree with your observation that wisdom and morality are linked in Scripture (and in common sense), but I have yet to hear or read anything of the immorality of the video venue movement. I have read the criticisms of the video venue, but these criticisms have been answered (or at least responded to) by its practitioners. The opposite of wisdom isn’t immorality, but foolishness. Foolishness does have a moral dimension, but I have yet to see the foolishness of the video venue. I have no doubt that some fools are involved, but they are involved in every layer and endeavor of the church. Apple of His Eye says: June 10, 2012 at 6:23 PM I screen, you screen, we all screen for I screens….so sorry…I just couldn’t resist…… Actually I don’t agree with screens as you see in my above post…I have to wonder about the egos of human nature….May I just ask what others privately ask? Why does one feel they can move themselves into areas where pastors have already been, and are loving their people, faithfully serving, and yes…hmmm, teaching their people? It just makes me wonder if one person might see themselves as a better teacher, the best even? It would never come from their lips, but it just makes one wonder…Is there an underlying thought that ‘the others can’t do it as well’ or ‘aren’t doing it as well?’ Just a thought… Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 6:26 PM I am all for big churches. Really big churches. But I see the need for lots of pastors in those really big churches, and that is not something CC breeds as a culture in the mega-church model. CC, for the most part, is personality driven. People go to “Bob’s” church, or “Greg’s” church. That, in itself, no matter how innocent, is entirely contrary to the church. If you have 5,000 people in a church, why not have 50 pastors? CC can’t facilitate that, because there is only the Moses. The “associate” pastors are there to pray for people after services, and play point guard to the “senior”. People hide in mega churches. They pay their dues. There is not “community” being built. There is not community being built, because the “moses” can’t do it all. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 6:33 PM @82, “It just makes me wonder if one person might see themselves as a better teacher, the best even?” I think Bob indicates as much in his comments, specifically pointing out that it was necessary to have “non-teaching” pastors in those churches for whatever it is they do, because he is the good teacher. Kinda funny actually. But CC won’t view this as ego, it again, is a result of the moses model. Only Bob is anointed to teach. TimBrown says: June 10, 2012 at 6:35 PM Centurion @ 78 – You ask: Are these guys just so much better than we are as pastors that we should buy a screen and join their movement. It’s not that they are better as pastors (I have a hunch that they are not very good when it comes to the soul of pastoring). But I do think that they are probably, for the most part, better speakers than we are. In addition, they are better at gathering talent around themselves so that the church service is not just about them but includes a killer praise team and a stellar children’s ministry staff… It’s the whole package. We call them pastors – and I get that. Sometimes I wonder if the one we are calling the pastor is really an evangelist in the pastoral office. We measure them by their office and title where maybe we should be viewing them through the lens of their gifting. I think that you are like me – I would rather pastor 50 people than be the campus pastor of 1500 in a video venue. I am called to be a pastor teacher. Can a man be a pastor and not a teacher? I think I’ve heard a few of them down through the years. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 6:37 PM @85, “paid theologian” is the term you are looking for. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 6:39 PM Kenny Rogers is on stage with Phish singing the Gambler right now. Epic. http://www.youtube.com/bonnaroo TimBrown says: June 10, 2012 at 6:52 PM Reuben @ 83 – You ask: If you have 5,000 people in a church, why not have 50 pastors? Why not? We do. We have about 300 people and five pastors – well not really, well, yes really. I am the only one called ‘pastor’, but I am one of five elders. These guys rock! They love the people and the people love them. They preach and teach and counsel, etc. they are called elders and do the work of a pastor. Well, why not call them pastors? Here’s why – Often, when I go to pastor’s conferences someone tells me they have five pastors on staff (or some such number). I know that their church is smaller than the one I serve and I am the only full time staff at CC Fremont. I know that this guy doesnt have 5 full time staff pastors. But I also know about insecurity and am pretty much of an expert myself in knowing how to make myself look important. It makes me look important if I have a large staff that work ‘under me.’ I’m sure it is pretty lame, but I don’t refer to our elders as Pastors Robert and Joaquin, etc., because it makes me look more important than I really am. I hate grandstanding. Plus, elder is a solid title with Biblical credentials. I agree, whatever you call them – the pastoral care,of the church should keep pace with the growth of the church. Whether this is paid staff, called elders, trained small group leaders – it should keep pace. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 6:57 PM Tim, excellent! That is not normative in CC. Em says: June 10, 2012 at 7:03 PM #85 . . . good ponder . . . Alex says: June 10, 2012 at 7:03 PM Centy said, “Bob”… ROTFLOL! …gets me every time …somewhere, London is pounding her keyboard LOL. TimBrown says: June 10, 2012 at 7:23 PM Reuben @ 89 – I can only speak to my experience and my circle of pastor friends, especially in the SF Bay Area. There is real concern for ongoing pastoral care – whether in the form of pastors or elders or small group leaders or Bible study leaders or counsleors, etc. If you look at the pastorate through the lens of prophet and priest and king, the vast majority of the guys I hang with would be characterized by priestly concerns. They love the people and want to serve them and not be served by the people. I am a small fish in a big pond, but in my circle of pastor friends I can say with full intellectual integrity that I don’t know one who cares only about size and empire and not about the souls of those put under his charge. Scott says: June 10, 2012 at 7:29 PM Apple of His Eye, you’re I screen, we screen joke was hilarious! but shouldn’t it be iScreens Scott says: June 10, 2012 at 7:31 PM Btw, my take on mega-sites and iScreens is that they exist people that’s what most people who participate in those venues want. Scott says: June 10, 2012 at 7:39 PM One of the main reasons I like the church I attend is because the pastor is a gifted bible teacher/exhorter/encourager. I don’t attend so the “young guys” who need a chance to develop their teaching “call” can practice on me. I know that probably sounds selfish, but I’m just being honest. mk says: June 10, 2012 at 7:41 PM I was encouraged by the video. CC Fort Lauderdale was our home church for 16 years. We left back in 2006, and leaving was a painful experience for us. CC had been a way of life…met many wonderful people…it’s where my husband and I heard the gospel message and asked Christ into our hearts. We had our boys’ dedicated to the Lord…Bob Coy officated their dedications. When our oldest son was diagnosed with a life-threatening illness, many precious folks at CC walked alongside us practically every step of the way…they prayed, encouraged, made meals, even showed up at the hospital during the long surgery. I won’t ever forget it. We left in 2006 to find another church. CCFL had grown to roughly 8-10,000 people, I think. The place was packed every service. If memory serves correctly, they had two Saturday night services and another three on Sunday morning…also two on Wednesday nights. The administration was looking at ways of expanding to accomodate the growth. At the time they wanted to build a larger sanctuary to seat more people (and probably hoping to reduce the number of services), and so there was a monumental effort to raise funds for construction. In a nutshell, my husband and I didn’t want to sit in a bigger sanctuary…didn’t think it was a wise investment. There was pressure to conform and support this project, and I remember feeling resentful that all we heard about for months was about this building effort. In the end, we were turned off, and realized we had to move on. But in doing so, we lost touch with others there — that was a painful for us. All this to say, watching the video was cathartic for me. It was good seeing and hearing Bob again. He’s got a fun personality, and he has a way of delivering a sermon that’s both captivating and informative. His explanation of the video services at seven different locations makes sense to me. Btw, I’m fairly certain CCFL decided not to build the larger sanctuary, and so the way these satelite churches have popped up for those who want the smaller enviroment, and still get to hear Bob preach is a great solution for the people in his church, in my opinion. Xenia says: June 10, 2012 at 7:42 PM A video you will all like: Part One: (It’s got subtitles, don’t worry.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=64mDNq4nF9A Xenia says: June 10, 2012 at 7:51 PM Here’s Part 2! I really encourage you all to give this a look. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR13ziHLyQI&feature=channel&list=UL TimBrown says: June 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM mk @ 96 – thank you for sharing that. It was helpful. BrianD says: June 10, 2012 at 7:59 PM http://www.chrisbrogan.com/bloggingprimer/ Apple of His Eye says: June 10, 2012 at 8:04 PM Jesus reproduced Himself…He clearly was in fact the best teacher, but He trained, discipled, developed that in others….He knew His time on earth was limited….It takes a lot of humility for a pastor to do that…It says tons about their character… It takes a visionary, a visionary who has the vision for other teachers….Jesus saw what Peter could be, what Thomas could be….They in turn discipled others…No one would have picked David…No one would likely have picked any of the disciples…There are lots of gems out there with hearts of gold, callings to teach, and need a secure, mature Bible teacher to be a Samuel to them, Jesus to them…. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:07 PM LOL, BrianD @100, was there a point to that? Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 8:08 PM With all do respect to everybody, the idea that Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale “sends” people out needs to be qualified.Unless things have changed, the idea of “sending out” is here’s a bible, a prayer and “where God guides, God provides” so be sure you don’t ask for anything! Oh and if you already happen to be a Calvary Chapel in a city where we want to be a satellite…um sorry we believe the Lord wants to use Bob Coy and not the “less talented teacher” that’s already there. I get it, I really do. But it all seems a little disingenuous when there’s guys out here that could use the help, but are not because they’d rather put LITERALLY millions of dollars behind Bob Coy’s name than get behind financially or otherwise ANOTHER local Calvary Chapel congregation that is struggling. I haven’t watched the whole video, so I’ll be back. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:09 PM My old senior pastor and I just spoke on the phone. He is the best example of a pastor I know on this whole planet. I lamented about watching a church implode. I told him I hardly care about “church” anymore. I was explaining how frustrating it was to contemplate finding another church. He said, “Start your own home study.” Now, I am going to get drunk. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:11 PM “where God guides, God provides” Ah yes, love that one. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 8:14 PM Reuben, where can I find your “story?” I’ve read bits & pieces but don’t have the whole picture. You were once in the “ministry” and now not right? Were you a Calvary guy? Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 8:15 PM if you already happen to be a Calvary Chapel in a city where we want to be a satellite…um sorry we believe the Lord wants to use Bob Coy and not the “less talented teacher” that’s already there. —————————————————— Is there any evidence of a CC in Florida that was asked to leave the CC movement to make way for a Bob Coy satellite? I would ask for a specific name of the church that was forced by the powers that be at Costa Mesa to shutdown. The question applies for any other CCs, forced to close because of Greg Laurie or one of the other well known pastors. Thanks in advance… Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 8:19 PM No, you misunderstand. No local Calvary Chapels were ever asked to shut down. Just asked to understand that a satellite was being planted in the same city. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 8:28 PM I have nothing against multi-site, I just feel for the guys that are plowing away in the shadow of a big Calvary and the truth is NO ONE REALLY CARES what they’re doing in the name of Jesus for the 100-150 people. With the means to help, the bigger church doesn’t. The bigger church doesn’t EVEN RECOGNIZE THE OTHER CHURCHES. They’re not listed on their website, they’re hardly if ever mentioned. They are not partnered with. Basicaly guys are out there and then hear, hey CCFTL is opening another satellite in your city. It’s costing them literally millions of dollars to get up and running. But nobody ever really stopped to think, hey what if we put that local guy on salary for a couple of years? Or what if we paid their rent for a couple of years? Or what if we encourage or train a team of people to go and serve there for a couple of years? Or what if we encourage people to check that local Calvary Chapel out? Or how about if we feature what God is doing in this little Calvary Chapel? Or how ’bout just a LINK from Calvaryftl.org to their website!? I don’t know. I love Calvary Chapel although I don’t really see my future in those circles any longer but I really struggle with the church culture that has developed as a result of the above thinking. Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 10, 2012 at 8:29 PM Forget the screens in other churches – I am still trying to figure out why these guys have screens in their own churches. I saw a picture of a guy standing center stage with 2 huge screens right behind him – what is that all about? Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 10, 2012 at 8:31 PM For clarity – he was on the screens. Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:38 PM Mike Aware @106, I have never told my “whole story” online, and I doubt I ever will. The number that know the whole story is very limited. This is on purpose. There are people to protect, and a firm hope and prayer for change. Michael knows more than anyone here. In short, I served for about 12 years as youth/associate pastor and elder for CC in Colorado and Virginia. I had history with Vineyard as well. I was born to a pastor/missionary, who died a drug addict. I have been written off by CC, because I called a senior pastor on some things, a senior pastor who happens to be popular amongst CC “cutting edge” guys. I still have friendships with a very limited number of CC pastors, one of them posts here from time to time. Others keep me at arms length due to my “radical” theological shifts. For a year+, I have not served in any pastoral sense. This is also on purpose. I need to build stability for my family. I will be looking for neon signs before I attempt to serve as a pastor again, if there is an again. I would be happy to answer any big questions off blog. My whole story would take a long time to rehash, and it is not really worth it. There are people who post and lurk on this blog who have far worse stories than I. reuben68 at mac dot com Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:38 PM MLD @110, that is funny when you put it that way covered says: June 10, 2012 at 8:43 PM MLD, that’s a great question. Here’s another good question. About 5 years ago I was teaching @ CC Old Bridge, NJ and when I looked up there was a huge screen on the back wall facing the podium besides the 2 huge ones to either side of the podium. What the heck? Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:44 PM covered, that screen on the back wall actually helps the worship leaders know what words to sing when they are leading worship. you think I am kidding? Scott says: June 10, 2012 at 8:48 PM I feel a nit-picking session coming on… Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 8:48 PM Hey Reuben, thanks for sharing… covered says: June 10, 2012 at 8:49 PM Rueben, I never would have thought of that, thanks. I need to ask for forgiveness because this whole time I just chalked it up to another CC celebrity with a big ego, shame on me… Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 10, 2012 at 8:50 PM Hey Reuben, I wish your Rockies hadn’t given the Angels 3 days of batting practice – now we have to play them. Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 8:53 PM Well, I’m in the shadow of three mega Calvarys and we’ve gained as many if not more people from all 3 of them over the years as we might have lost… And those are the actual churches – not some new videoscreen location. I think what is missing here is the preference of the Christian. Just like our church is not going to attract MLD (and vice versa), for different reasons our church also won’t attract those who want a videoscreen church. And the videoscreen church is not going to attract the sorts who come to our place. So I don’t know what real concerns the smaller pastor would have from such locations – is he really going to lose members? Or is it that he sees his chance of becoming a megastar greatly diminished? Reuben says: June 10, 2012 at 8:56 PM covered, The only reason I know that is because I am friends with a guy who formerly served as the “video” guy at Crossroads church in Denver. I asked him why the screen on the back wall, and his answer made me laugh for a few minutes. MLD, our pitching ranks worst in all of MLB right now. Glad we can be of service. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 8:59 PM Well AV, I’d rather believe pure motive on their part. Come on, let’s just be frank, a little church’s family resources cannot compare. “Better” youth ministry, children’s ministry, facilities, etc. The guy’s I know don’t want to be “megastars” as you put, they just want to believe that all the talk about “brotherhood” is real. Captain Kevin says: June 10, 2012 at 9:06 PM I sing in our CC’s choir, when I can actually stand on the platform without falling on my face. We use the back-wall screen so we can sing without having our faces buried in sheet music. 1drummer says: June 10, 2012 at 9:09 PM Great post thanks for sharing. I am wondering if Mrs Alex took over his computer. Like the new Alex if it is him. Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 10, 2012 at 9:10 PM Well I agree with AV about crossover. My church is less than 2 miles on the same street as Saddleback Church – I am sure that we have lost people that go up there, but I think we have gained some too. But someone was saying that the mega churches have better preaching, better programs, better children programs etc – I don’t see it that way at all. I think the main difference is that the mega church is built on giving people what they want – not what they need. One thing I doubt you find in any mega church – kneelers! Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 9:13 PM Mike – @122. I’m not following the resources argument – but then again we worship in an old beat-up building we maintain for safety and try to keep looking clean – and that we have to utilize every available inch. Our 5th and 6th grade classroom is smaller than a typical walk-in closet – no exagerration. I’m sure it does drive some visitors away to seek elsewhere. So what? Nor am I tracking you that CC pastors out there are upset other churches aren’t paying their rent bill (per your #109) If that’s how they define CC brotherhood, they have joined the wrong movement. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM AV, I apologize because I must not be communicating correctly. You’re taking me entirely wrong. I’m not speaking for anyone AND no one expects their rent to be paid. That was just part of my little rant in stating the idea that if a large church in the area is looking to impact that area and there’s ALREADY someone on the same team, could it even be conceivable that God would lead them to fortify the existing congregation with a much smaller investment rather than commit millions of dollars in setting up a video venue. I’m not interested in being antagonistic about this issue. I have some insight about the dynamic in this area and wanted to qualify Bob Coy’s statement about “still planting churches in our backyard.” I think Bob is a good brother. I’m not speaking against him. But God’s not done with him yet as He’s not done with any of us and in my opinion how he sees the small local church is a blind spot for him. But I love the guy…mostly, lol. Blessings to you AV. covered says: June 10, 2012 at 9:25 PM AV, I don’t have a dog in this hunt because like Rueben, I spoke up about the sin of a bully CC pastor and was asked to go away and never come back. I do however agree with Mike A’s post @ 109. If the megastars are concerned about the “spiritual health” of the community, why not help out the smaller CC’s in that area? Mike A listed 6 ways to help out a smaller church and the things he listed would be much more like the old days when the product (per Bob C), was Christ first and not the # of butts in the seats. Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 9:39 PM Covered, maybe the ‘spiritual health of the community’ would be best served by the struggling CC shutting down? There’s a lot of clowns on TV I think God would remove from ministry if people would just stop giving them money. Why would that not also apply for local congregations? Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 9:40 PM Thanks Mike. Blessings to you too. ( |o )====::: says: June 10, 2012 at 9:42 PM Ahhh, the freedom of choice, of where to gather, why to gather, with whom to gather is awesome and empowering. When it all becomes a first world hipster problem is when we need the reality check. The irreplaceable and unique is the relationship between each of us and our neighbor at a given gathering, as Reuben is sadly mourning and experiencing with the end of a church he loved and appreciated. Reuben, cherish those fond memories and when you’re ready go make some new ones. …even if you prefer Cubase covered says: June 10, 2012 at 9:47 PM AV, while I’m for the closure of some CC’s (especially if I can decide which ones), I still feel that Mike A has a valid point. Your particular work wasn’t affected by bigger, flashier work moving in but that isn’t the case everywhere. I just don’t see the love when a pastor from the same tribe thinks he can do better than another. Did God change His mind about who He called where? I don’t necessarily have an issue with satellite churches just not where there’s an existing tribe on the same reservation. covered says: June 10, 2012 at 9:47 PM Hey G~ Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 9:48 PM AV per your 129. How would they know? They would actually have to care about what’s happening there to know right? They would actually have to have a conversation and see if the struggling congregation was worth saving right? But unfortunately it seems like that determination is based not on knowing through a relationship, but rather on how many people attend and how much financial resources there are. I agree, maybe some churches should shut down, but maybe, just maybe some of them would be worth strengthening. Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 9:51 PM I don’t necessarily have an issue with satellite churches just not where there’s an existing tribe on the same reservation. ———————————————————— Can’t really argue with you there, covered. I would add the specifics of geography play a part in all this too. What exactly constitutes “the area” in a highly dense population spread out over hundreds of square miles? Almost nobody is walking to church these days where I live – and if you have to drive, driving 15-20 minutes is not much different than driving 5-10 minutes (especially if you are used to driving 60+ minutes to work or anywhere fun for entertainment). And you put a pin in the map with a 20 minute drive radius, you would include a LOT of churches. covered says: June 10, 2012 at 9:59 PM AV, I agree with your position as it pertains to locations. I would just hope that some of the celebs consider the impact of moving in on another CC. I don’t want to turn this into a turf war like what happened south of you in the S.D. area. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 10:02 PM I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having more than one Calvary in the same city. The whole “10 Mile Rule” I think is silly. But it’s even MORE silly to COMPLETELY IGNORE the small church that’s already there. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 10:03 PM Just finished up the video. I give it a “B”, lol. I think Broderson was great especially. Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 10:04 PM They would actually have to have a conversation and see if the struggling congregation was worth saving right? —————————————————————— You want to read what you wrote there again So Bob Coy’s job before he starts a satellite church is to knock on the other pastor’s door and say “Look, before I start this new venture, I need to decide if you are worth saving. Show me your books. Tell me how you do things here. Let me hear some messages. Introduce me to the rest of the leadership. Then I’ll decide if you are worth saving and if ‘yes’ I’ll write you a check to help out. In all seriousness, local pastors are encouraged to meet and fellowship with each other. Guys share prayer requests, challenges that might be going on, including financial. And most CCs have a relationship with another, sending, CC. Typically a larger one than the size they are (if struggling). CCs with relationships with each other do in fact help each other – whether it be the church plant itself, or possibly in a time of need. Martin Luther's Disciple says: June 10, 2012 at 10:12 PM I watched Xenia’s video. Good message. Another Voice says: June 10, 2012 at 10:14 PM Have to crash. Mike and covered, I think we are in agreement about some consideration being shown existing churches not run by celebrity pastors – before new works are begun by the same tribe. Next time we can talk about small guys who set up shop in the shadow of a large ministry in hopes of an easy initial growth because there are some folks looking to shave 10 minutes off their Sunday drive. Peace. covered says: June 10, 2012 at 10:15 PM Goodnight AV Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 10:17 PM AV, you’re the one that said maybe the church should shut down, so no I don’t think there should be some kind of audit or anything like that. But I do think dome kind of modicum of respect should be given to the guy and the church by having a conversation. How do you know the small guy isn’t the next Greg Laurie? I mean it’s not like Pastor Chuck ever set up a guy’s facility financially when they first start right? Why are you so against considering getting behind the guy that’s already there? I’m not even saying financially. But whats wrong with letting some of those families know there’s another Calvary Chapel in the area? Just imagine with me, over the course of the year 100 families visit the smaller church because bigger church says hey check those guys out, there good brothers and maybe you’ll like it there better. 90 families say, “Nah we like it here better.” But just 10 families decide, “wow we actually like the dynamic of a small church.” You already KNOW the impact that 10 NEW FAMILIES would have on a church of say 150 people. But here in South Florida, THOSE CHURCHES ARE COMPLETELY IGNORED. Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 10:18 PM O sorry didn’t know you were signing off. Good night! ( |o )====::: says: June 10, 2012 at 10:20 PM covered! happy sunday evening covered says: June 10, 2012 at 10:25 PM Hey Mike, how far south are you? Close to Surfside? Mike Aware says: June 10, 2012 at 10:26 PM I’m in the Fort Lauderdale area. covered says: June 10, 2012 at 10:29 PM I see, thanks. covered says: June 10, 2012 at 10:34 PM Hey G, I hope that you had a blessed day! brian says: June 10, 2012 at 11:52 PM I dont really know why I did this but I read almost all of the comments and blogs concerning Jason Stillman’s leaving the PCA for some say “Rome”(tm) or “Constantinople”(tm). There were some very insightful comments, some kind but concerned comments, then there was the pathetic drivel of childish rhetoric, where mostly men measured their manhood. It was disgusting and tiresome. They could quote books, famous and not so famous authors and name drop. They would also include this “I dealt with that heresy on my blog type crap as if they were someone to be held up as an authority while playing the humility card. If I had to codify it, the words would be passive aggressive. I know I have used the same rhetoric, to my shame, here and other places many times. We can smell each other like, um never mind. There was blood in the water and the sharks were hungry, but a theme came to mind, redemption. I am convinced if Mr. Stillman repented and fell at their feet, even the blood of Jesus could not redeem him, because he made a mess. That is the unpardonable sin in the industry, making a mess. The other aspect was that Mr. Stillman mentioned he had many people to talk to about his questions, many counselors to consult. I do not live on the same planet as he does. So I ask, what is the big deal if he converts to RC, EO, or what ever. I guess that is my post modernism talking but my postmodernism comes directly out of how the Church has dealt with doubt. I lay that at their feet, not mine, I was willing to play the game, kiss backsides and placate egos but that was never enough. Mr Stillman “prosecuted” some other poor schmuck found on the wrong side of some ever changing theological goal line. I fault him for that to be honest but that was what the industry required so he played the best hand he had. I watched it from the cheap seats and never more then before my comment stands. Its not good news, it never has been, and never will be for the vast majority of humanity. Kindly stop calling it that. Thanks mk says: June 11, 2012 at 6:52 AM Mike A. — I wonder if we know one another. No pressure to disclose who you are though. I’m still in the Ft. Lauderdale area and find it’s an unusual place to live — for 20 years I was trying to escape this place and move out of the area, but it hasn’t happened… yet. Anyway, I can appreciate your frustrations and agree with your #143. I think the big church should also get behind those who want to plant other CC’s in the area — there’s room for both venues. And there’s the population base to support more church plants here. I wish you well. Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.