Jun 022012
My apologies again for being absent, and I’ll apologize forward for more absenteeism to come.
I haven’t had time to read through the current strife and won’t have any for a while.
I would only ask that we treat others the way we would want to be treated and ask that things be kept to a dull roar as all of us here have busy lives and pressing responsibilities.
Thank you to my moderators who never really know where I’m at or what I’m doing…because I haven’t had time to keep up with them either.
Until next week…it’s all yours.
157 Responses to “Open Blogging”
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Have a great week, Michael!
Love ya Michael. Have a good day.
Dodgers fall to the Rockies 3-13.
Just did not want that fun little fact to go by without saying something.
And I was there with MPH, right above the bullpen, enjoying the heck out of what was a dream come true game.
Rubes…it was a blast. Can’t believe the people next to us bought you a beer and I got nothing.
Had a good convo with longtime friend Mr. Centorian yesterday and then got to catch a great baseball game with Reuben.
Was reminded yesterday how long I’ve been on this blog and that the original Mr. Potato Head was actually started by myself and another CC pastor in an effort to defend what we found to be indefensible.
enjoyed our talk together MPH……
been busy as well, just caught up on some things here…
to quote Michael…..
“I would only ask that we treat others the way we would want to be treated”
I would second that and also say that includes how some of you treat Alex….. I think he at least made some type of attempt here, which is more than I can say for some of you…..
Centorian, are you speaking of me in your 8:47am comment? Would you be direct and list exactly who you are speaking of by our blog names?
This is a no win situation in speaking of Alex if he’s not here to interact. It will appear as if he’s being talked about behind his back. Speaking for myself I would not change a thing I said to him yesterday. I believe I was more than fair.
@3, they were drunk, plus, you were drinking a coke. They probably figured you were a softie.
@8 – Well somebody had to drive home I guess
Lets drop the Alex talk. Please. So many better things to rejoice in. Like the fact that the blue bloods are getting humiliated….
Reuben,
Have your fun now.
MLD, I wanted to make a video of the back to back homers with a little personal note live from the field. I was not quick enough with the camera.
We sat behind Ethier most of the night, and two of us offered MPH a buck to throw his water bottle at him. Alas, it did not happen, or you would have seen us on TV…
Erunner,
I will agree with your statement and restate it as if it were my own…
“Speaking for myself I would not change a thing I said to him yesterday. I believe I was more than fair.”
Going on to quote another quotable, Reuben is front and center…
“So many better things to rejoice in.”
So, if there are any with an iPad and are artistically inclined, there are a few apps which are worth buying and here’s my current favorite, much like painting with a real paint set, no lagging…
http://www.fingerpainted.it/2011/03/24/a-look-at-procreate-a-new-painting-app-for-the-ipad/
FWIW, i gave my final thots on the wronged little boy over on TGIF this am
talkin baseball and finger painting over here, eh?
i think God is telling me to go get to work on other stuff today – trying to figure out what i can possibly do with some fascinating information about the miraculous grey matter inside our skulls . . . maybe i’ll just finger paint today
seems like i heard this past week that the Mariners were down in Texas – enjoy
I beg the moderators the opportunity for my own brief coda, as I am at a disadvantage. Other venues of response can either be deleted or published inappropriately. Plus, I see the PP as a family, I have something to say to that family.
I woke up with multiple emails and more threats, insults and drama than I have desire or time for. None of which I have engaged or intend to engage. Nor of course would I publish the contents publically.
However, love ‘believes all things’. So I will take that cue and thus I am to believe from these emails that four of you (listed by name), and many unnamed readers of PP are in agreement that I have been wrong in my behavior.
So to all of you – I apologize. I do not want to be seen as a blog bully, or part of some powerful alliance.
I refer back to the history of the last couple days in my last post in the linkathon thread – and stand by every word.
I also refer back to my prayer request of a couple weeks back, as I have a significant challenge (outside of ministry) that I am about to face concerning work and providing for family.
After posting that request a week or so back, I discovered I had another month or so before needing to really kick things in gear, but given the outcome of the last few days maybe that was a mistaken assumption on my part and the Lord would have me “kick things in gear” now. Certainly the “fruit” of these last days (and whatever awaits in the future now) would argue that.
So that is my plan. Once more, to the PP family, please accept my apologies and know that I care for you all.
Peace.
I wouldn’t put myself into a position of ever even being moderated.
Therefore, I will choose to “…treat others the way I would want to be treated.”
have to respond to AV one last time – thank you, sir – your input here has centered me more than once
and, FWIW, i think we should, all of us, be praying – does the PhxP have future in the will of God – it certainly can’t deteriorate into a punching bag for the self-righteous and agenda driven
God loves you all . . . and so do i – wherever the future leads us all
I haven’t had time to read through all the emails and all the accusations and strife…I haven’t even read through the threads. I have my hands full at the moment.
Well, I have no idea what happened… what is transpiring … who is accused of what… who is right or wrong… I have no idea at all what this is about.
Probably a good thing… probably two parts misunderstanding… 3 parts perspective… and one part stubbornness… with a dash of good will tossed in… or not.
Emails etc. such as AV and Michael refer to? i would not read them – exceptions might be UGM notices posted here first – dunno – this post started out long and was edited
BD, #19 – it’s a dark place, don’t go in there
i said i was gone and i was, but i came in the room and found the computer had fired itself up from “sleep” and there was this thread here and . . . pontifications happen
BD, it’s nothing new. I will just say again, if an individual has to be consistently placed under moderation on a public forum, there’s obviously a problem and something out of skew with that person, whoever it is and for whatever reason, period.
Now, onto my honey do list
On of the things I like about FB is it allows me to self moderate. There have been times when I automatically fire off a response to someone’s post or comment and then have second thoughts about either my own tone or whether it is even worth my venting. Or I post a link and then realize it may offend folks I care about who hold differing views.
On blogs I have tried to me more careful. I ask forgiveness if my carelessness in word or tone has still slipped through.
I have replaced a mindful reminder card on my desk above my computer to help me. Especially with politics heating up as the election draws near, ongoing wars and rumors or wars, etc.
Courtesy of Alan Redppath:
TRUTH
T – Is it true?
H – Is it helpful?
I – Is it inspiring?
N – Is it necessary?
K – Is it kind?
“If what I am about to say does not pass those tests, may I keep my mouth shut.” AR
Since often I really don’t have a real clue what is true/helpful/inspiring or necessary – my overriding default is whether it is kind. I fail miserably a lot of the time. And even if I manage to refrain from talking/typing, a bright shiny spotlight gets shown all over my petty, prideful, unloving, unforgiving heart. Grateful for mercies that are new every morning!
Anne, IMV your posts are kind and honest
i don’t understand a lot of things . . . like blog etiquette
here’s a new topic:
just read about the bear that broke into the car and ate the guy – should the bear be killed? there are folk saying that the bear didn’t know any better … or … what about the non-compliant patient with a chronic illness? just heard the story of a $30,000+ expense to the taxpayers for each instance of one person’s *knowingly indulging* in a forbidden food – are we to be understanding and say, “oh, the poor soul?” –
is it unChristian to say, “cut the cr*p, kill the bear and tell the sick lady that it’s three strikes and you’re out?” or to put it more nicely, it could be prefaced by, “it pains me to have to say it, but the bear must go” . . . and. . . “dear woman, my heart aches for your burden, but there isn’t enough money in the world to keep funding your weakness . . .”
Em,
If everyone acted as kindly, openly, wisely, and with friendly curiousity as you do on PP and try and see all sides of an issue, well, this would be a much, much friendlier and uplifting place.
Don’t change…you’re a role model.
God bless.
http://youtu.be/3r1ZKhsOwYM
I was wondering what people think about this the Tate Publishing talk that is now making the rounds on the internet.
Lutheran,
That was a strange comment. I see all sides to an issue – does that mean I have to agree with all sides?
If it does, how would a judge ever make a decision?
Em, what Lutheran said!
The Rockies just lost, rather badly to the Dodgers.
Not nearly as bad as the Dodgers lost last night.
MLD,
The comment was intended for Em.
I think it’s wise, on the ‘Net, to hold judgments pretty lightly.
And when you find it necessary, there’s also the way one communicates — and IMHO, no one does it any better than Em.
I can’t get enough of Capon -
“I think good preachers should be like bad kids. They ought to be naughty enough to tiptoe up on dozing congregations, steal their bottles of religion pills, spirituality pills, and morality pills, and flush them all down the drain. The church, by and large, has drugged itself into thinking that proper human behavior is the key to its relationship with God. What preachers need to do is force it to go cold turkey with nothing but the word of the cross—and then be brave enough to stick around while it goes through inevitable withdrawal symptoms”
- Robert Farrar Capon, “The Foolishness of Preaching”
So many preachers today look more like pill pushers!
oh my, i was not expecting those kind comments, Lutheran . .. i don’t know whether to say ‘thank you’ or ‘fooled you’
you, too, CK – thank you both
“. . . Since the 1970s Christians have been deploring the state of the culture . . ., but the culture keeps getting worse. Does anyone haver a clue how salt and light works?”
that’s the question posed in article well worth a read IMO
“. . . . .Perhaps we should stop confusing a Christian lifestyle with the Christian life. . . . The world has sometimes been friendly with the church. But the world has always, in every generation, been deeply hostile to Christ. . . . . . When churches are full it’s generally because church is the thing to do. When family values are practiced it’s because society understands the benefit. And when cultures slide into obvious depravity, . . . people are showing their true colors.
. . . . .
“. . . [being] salt and light [is impossible] –– until you notice that He didn’t say *to be.* He said, *you are.* As we conform to Christ, we are a stench to those who are perishing, and a fragrance to those who are being saved. Showing Christ is our commission and what that does to the culture is up to God.” Janie B. Cheaney in the June 2, 2012 issue of “World” magazine
amen, Janie B
MLD asked Lutheran, “… I see all sides to an issue – does that mean I have to agree with all sides?” that makes you a very wise man . . . there must be much that you’re holding back
Seems to me that Janie B. Chaney wants it both ways.
With her stance, you can’t really “be friends” with anyone in the world because of the “stench of the world.”
Then she complains that the church isn’t being salt and light.
How are we supposed to change anything if we’re not engaged with it?
Brian #27
I listened to the audio. How nauseating. Listening to the guy invoke the Lord’s name in an opening prayer and then proceeding to mercilessly rip into his staff…sickening.
I wonder how this audio got out. Wait, I know — if you treat your staff like s*it with complete and utter disrespect, don’t be surprised when you get bitten in the ass.
Maybe it’s a good thing that with the Internet, there’s a little more balance and these types of control freaks can be exposed.
Em,
In the context of the topic of the moderated blogger, I know all of the sides of his position very well.I had 7 emails from the unnamed moderated blogger last night and this morning, telling me clearly his position about me, the blog and several other bloggers.
So, my question to Lutheran was, now that I see / know all sides, do I have to agree?
I will say that I disagreed with his views in all 7 emails and the unnamed moderated blogger, in his usual fashion began emailing our private conversations to others.
But you are right – there is much that I do hold back.
Lutheran, chalk it up to my poor attempt to post from the article – what the article stresses is that we can’t change the world thru politics, but we are salt and light in it . . . she stressed, i think, that we are definitely to be out there in the world
MLD, that issue (#38) you are very wise to “hold back” – as are the moderators here (wise)
to clarify a bit, Cheaney observed that it is the world that doesn’t like *our* aroma:
“As we conform to Christ, we are a stench to those who are perishing”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-S4DZ_aWNuU#!
Those poor cows!
BrianD –
now i know for certain that Michael isn’t around today 
They say after a contentious thread, bloggers should post a cute cat picture or video
BrianD – IMHO that was not a *cute* cat picture . . . well . . . it was . . . kinda
it was a cute cow picture, tho . . .
God keep
I love remote control helicopters.
Half drunk, I find that funny.
I will try to think about this when tomorrow turns to poop.
For you Em, A cute cat video. Actually hilarious.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTTwcCVajAc
MIB3
See it!
MIB3?
Men In Black 3
BrianD,
Your heartfelt post that was never addressed on the closed thread bears a repost…
BrianD says:
May 31, 2012 at 4:56 PM
On an unrelated note…
I’m just now starting to formulate my thoughts on being in the wilderness. Of looking atheism and skepticism in the eye and seeing its dogmatism wanting. Of working through my own questions and doubts, while not wanting to shed Christianity altogether. Of wanting to shed myself of American Christianity’s religiosity, in all of its flavors (including the neo-Reformed variety) that aren’t life-giving and don’t nourish the soul. Of looking towards other Christian traditions to help capture that life and nourishment. Of doing so while walking through this time of my life alone, stoically enduring the loneliness, enjoying the opportunity to explore other variants of Christianity, facing some of my own questions about God, His existence and His nature.
And, of seeing that God truly moves in and outside of the traditions we grew up in, and live in.
Thanks for the repost, g man. And thanks for sharing your heart, Brian D. Your linkathons have exemplified the integrity of your journey.
Thanks for the kind words at #25, Em.
Sweet dreams, pp peeps….
BrianD,
Just as elsewhere you affirmed me on behalf of the PhxP, so too, we’re here for you, sometimes with our individually qualified observations about similar things, sometimes with little more to say than, “we get you”, but always with love.
Thanks for your faithfulness, tonight and every day
I’m going to unmoderate Alex so he can have his say about some grim injustice that he feels has been perpetrated on him so I can actually deal with real issues in my own life.
You all can either tear each other a new one or make peace…at this point I really don’t care.
Steve, Grendal, I’ve already apologized to you and extended a legit effort to make peace. It was not met in kind. You’ve got a couple of choices: 1. swallow your pride and accept some responsibility for your actions (it takes two to tango) and move forward 2. do what you did the other day and show what terrible people you can be sometimes 3. boycott the blog in an effort to manipulate Michael and the mods into banning me again.
I’m still committed to being civil and more gracious on here and you shouldn’t freak when topics like discussing the Mormon stuff is legit. Heck, the article at the CP has gone nearly viral. It’s interesting to a lot of people, even if it’s not interesting to a few of you. I put up with reading your boring discussions (Steve and Gene) all the time LOL. And, a little bit of snark is OK for everyone, including me.
See, I thought Michael’s snark up there was funny (and there’s some truth to it which makes it funny). It’s not the end of the world and I don’t think he’s abusing me.
4) speak of BrianD
There was a time when I didn’t really understand that you, too, are a person. I thought that as a moderator you were simply tasked with being “the cops”. Then, back in the day of TheNightCrew you and JJ had us literally in tears of hilarious laughter.
Echoing Anne’s observation, you are a great journalist, bringing together what have added up to well over hundreds of topics for springboards of lively and spirited discussion.
I understand very well this season of loneliness that must come with being “outside the camp”, without a declared “tribe”. There is a kind of bond that comes with this solitude, a comfort of simply knowing there are others who hear the wind and see the clouds when choosing to be away from the noise of the crowd.
Thanks BrianD, you are a true brother in TheFaith
G,
Brian D has been faithful for years…as has my whole crew.
I would have cashed out long ago without him…
Alex, I posted back and forth yesterday with you regarding Mormonism. I did not attack you personally. I expressed my beliefs strongly as I see the topic as being very important. There’s nothing more I can really say on the topic.
I will say that I believe you’re not doing a very good job in seeking to present a nicer Alex to this blog. I was in a similar position as you at one time in that I alienated many people by the way I expressed myself here on the blog. I tried leaving but was always drawn back just as you are. I fancied myself a martyr of sorts because of what I saw as persecution unfairly doled out.
I came to realize I had messed up big time and that I would have to demonstrate over time that the over the top Erunner was no longer going to be posting. People didn’t come running to pat me on the back and some didn’t engage me at all. It took time. People didn’t trust me.
The trust/respect/forgiveness you seek is something that can only be earned over time. It doesn’t happen in a day. You are not a victim here.
E, I’ve got no beef with you. I thought your push-back on the Mormon stuff was legit and valid and you didn’t cross any lines that I saw.
E, I’m not a victim (I don’t allow myself to be one).
E, let’s (please) not talk about me and my situation.
Instead, let’s get back to some WWF!
Michael,
I’ll not engage or interact with Alex until he demonstrates the character I have clearly outlined. He treats you with no respect and yet you return for more abuse?
He and I have absolutely nothing to say for a long, long time to come.
Alex, I have to believe a lot of people want to talk about your situation. I believe it needs to be discussed as opposed to acting like nothing’s happened.
How can we play? You unfriended me on FB.
g, Michael, everyone else, thank you all for your kind words.
G,
I cannot adequately express how overwhelmed I am at the moment.
My suggestion is that we interact with people we want to interact with and that we ignore those we don’t want to interact with.
In the midst of a crisis this week I was told by someone I trust with my life that my greatest gift was my patience and tolerance…as was my greatest shortcoming.
At the present this is a no win situation unless we all take it down a notch.
For me, I’ll be up till about 2 this morning trying to get a message ready for a church that needs fed no matter how busy or burdened my life is.
Oddly enough, I am teaching this passage…
“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
(Ephesians 4:1–3 ESV)
(Michael – ignore this and carry on with your life)
I for one will not engage with Alex, and I just don’t see how others want to. Up to this very hour, Alex is filling my email with threats.
E, I sent you a friend request and explained that I unfriended you so I wouldn’t be reminded of the PP.
MLD, hardly threats, nice spin.
Let’s drop it.
Michael, you are right. Good verse.
E, your move buddy
Thanks for the re-add.
Michael,
Stay focused on your family, on you & Trey, forget about the rest of us. Take care of business and what is important. I am a man who will live his life fully, joyously, honoring my wife, children, the memory of my parents. I will do graphic design, write music, take photos, paint, draw, all the while knowing you are my friend. May sunrise greet you with the promise of a new day and may God give you arms to embrace your church tomorrow morning.
G,
Thank you…that sounds like a fine life.
Things are better for little man…and I finally have a day off tomorrow.
I seriously underestimated the passage I’m teaching, however…and I just had to chase a raccoon out of my room.
Never leave the cat food close to the door…
Michaels 11:40 about chasing out pesky raccoons trying to steal food meant to nourish others cause the door was left open, should have ended with “make your own application”
I wanted to add something I am sure, at least from what I have experienced in the local faith worthless but I spent time with family. I put aside anger, trust me justified, to be with family to restore and hope. First I know that makes me pathetic, at least that is what I have learned in the modern Christian religion as practiced in America. Forgiveness and restoration is for wimps and compromisors. We are warriors kicking butt and taking names. Yes and hoping we gain the stake, the sword, the rope, and the stake.
I found peace through forgiveness over much offense and “justified” anger, I would go into it but it would not edify and it also is just past. I am not saying others should not speak aloud of such events, I have chosen not to and I refrain from listing events because I know I could be wrong and my anger has clouded my judgement. This is just me. Deep down I am sure there is some type of apostasy, heresy and selfishness in these motives, a gift from my evangelical experience but it is what it is, and I am what I am.
When I got the left foot of fellowship out of an organization I loved, if I can love, something I have often been questioned on I E being able to love, but that is another post. I chose not to go after the leader, I fell, and I know this is pathetic and stupid on my part, on my sword and shut up. It would have done no good and hurt many people. Again a personal individual decision and only for this situation.
I remember saying to one pastor, I just want to be restored to my once friends. I grant that such nonsense is emotionalistic clap trap and should make one vomit, but it really did heal some serious wounds. It just felt good to forgive, how pathetic is that?
There has always been one hope for me, forgiveness and restoration, a soul like myself, if I even have one which I often doubt, and I mean that. Is forgiveness and restoration. I pray sometimes all night for that, beg and even cry for it. If that does not prove my Apostasy I do not know what would. But it is what I cling to. From the cheap seats and I have said this before and I hope people get my meaning, as the Christian religion is practiced in the modern American Corporation, it is not good news, it never has been.
brian, as usual, good stuff IMO. Thanks for sharing that. I feel that way too sometimes. I’ve been down both roads (fallen on the sword and not). I forgave and forgave and forgave growing up, unfortunately in my situation it led to more abuse and others getting hurt. Like you said situations are unique and there are different sets of circumstances. (I only share that not to make this about me, but to try and express why what you stated meant something to me). It’s hard to fall on the sword. There are many times I’ve done it, many times I haven’t in far less serious situations. It does feel “good” like you said when you forgive someone. I had a recent local issue and I approached the guy at church and simply took responsibility for my part and forgave by apologizing to him. He responded very graciously and it things got a lot better. I don’t think I would have responded well if he hadn’t reciprocated. I’m sure I don’t get it right often. Like you, I long for the reconciliation, mutual forgiveness etc, but it’s hard to let people take advantage of you and it’s risky to apologize or forgive, b/c the other person can throw it back at you. I’m glad my local friend didn’t.
London, we shoot raccoons here in Ideeho. Sometimes we cook ‘em and eat ‘em.
Bob Mumford taught that the church can be a “rubber room”: a place to act out our inner twistedness without harming ourselves and others. One of the joys of PP is to watch so many use this place as just that.
Behind the horrible words and conflicts and accusations and slander are real people truly getting to know themselves and working through not only a legacy of religious toxicity but also deep trauma of which they themselves are hardly conscious.
I have enjoyed seeing so many here break through into a self-acceptance and a degree of inner calm that perhaps they themselves never even had as an explicit personal goal.
Heaven had that goal for us, and helped us toward it in spite of ourselves, asking only for a willingness to be honest with ourselves, to die to our own false convictions, and to surrender our own hurtful agendas.
As we used to sing in the charismatic movement: Let’s press on.
since this the open blog
i’ve almost finished a book by the leading neuroscientist, Michael Gazzaniga (now i’ve got to go back and read again as my brain is old and the science is new)
the discoveries in the field are going to challenge those who are religious – the studies of the brain being made public are fascinating and have – IMO – great value, but they will challenge those whose faith relies on experience . . . as my favorite teacher used to say, our emotions are the appreciators, not the governors of our Faith . . . or as a favorite here says, it is theology that leads to doxology
the research being done in the field of ‘neuroscience’ is uncovering quite a bit that is going to help in understanding our behaviors as human beings, but, it will provide the enemy another tool with which to challenge religion – we need knowledge and understanding of what we believe – and that means . . . sigh, i admit it, WE NEED DOCTRINE AND THEOLOGY
Dansk, I think that’s an interesting observation (and probably a lot of truth to it).
Just wanted to make sure there are some boundaries set up as we move forward:
“crazy” “off my meds” “dangerous” “toxic” “unsafe” and “threats” are loaded words. Please don’t use them to describe me. They are over the line and I won’t tolerate that narrative any longer. I have an FFL license and a following on the Christian Post and a family to support and provide for. If you sincerely believe those things, no problem, but if you continue a narrative publicly, it can cause harm and loss of income, reputation etc. I’m asking nicely and warning nicely. When I post words, I’m willing to back them up all the way (and will if challenged in court). There is nothing in my history that would support those claims above. I have a clean criminal record and no history of being “dangerous” or “crazy” etc in the context that some have used in their narrative.
http://now.msn.com/now/0411-henri-existential-housecat.aspx#scptm2
Cat vids and making fun are legit and some poking fun and snark is a OK
BrianD, I’ve been reading about your journey as well, it is very interesting to watch you hash things out. I’m learning from many of you, about people and about myself and about how our church experiences shape us and affect us. Good stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WosgwLekgn8
HT on previous two links to http://rachelheldevans.com/sunday-superlatives-6-30-2012?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RachelHeldEvans+%28Rachel+Held+Evans+-+Blog%29
BrianD,
Love your cats!
As a journalist you’ll appreciate this.
Just finished reading the disastrous interview that John Mayer gave back in 2010. I had heard that Mayer totally stepped in it and they just let him go on and on, but I hadn’t ever looked it up ’til now before I buy his newest release.
I’ve been a student of his amazing blues guitar stylings, wow.
But as an interviewee he is the king of TMI.
But I’m inspired to work on a new song dedicated to that part of us that is entirely too self consumed, too self absorbed
“It’s plain to see for everyone around you
Humility is a suit you’ve never worn
Not a comfortable fit
Gotta wrinkle it a bit…”
…now I just gotta write a little more
I’ll post it to Soundcloud when it’s done
Mayer’s version of “Crossroads”, where he uses an F#m instead of the B is just the right amount of spice in the gumbo
Songwriting is, for me, an incredibly self conscious art. Add in the fact that I have a next generation member of my household who can destroy a piece with that eye roll or knowing smirk and sometimes I just gotta steal the alone time. Guess this is why some of us create seperate soundproof sound studios
“Michaels 11:40 about chasing out pesky raccoons trying to steal food meant to nourish others cause the door was left open, should have ended with “make your own application””
London,
“When I got the left foot of fellowship out of an organization I loved, if I can love, something I have often been questioned on I E being able to love…”
Brian,
While you may have been questioned on that at one time, you have gone far above and beyond in showing tremendous love to your students. The kind of love you have demonstrated can only be the fruit of the Spirit.
BrianD, i almost missed #82 – purrfect
the flying cat was one of the better uses of a feline I’ve seen…cows, well, they need exercise. I’m with Michael on the crazy-schedule-end-of-myself-hope-you-all-don’t-run-with-scissors-I’ve-no-bandaids situation. Full-time teaching schedule, new restaurant open, graduating senior, attempting to finish grad program, sure-I’m-forgetting something else. I’m glad I don’t have a congregation to tend to on top of it all… Humor in this space hovers dangerously near sarcasm/cynicism. I have to think twice or thrice and usually self-edit.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/06/03/obesity-epidemic-in-america-churches/?intcmp=features
“Three months later he was 50 pounds lighter, healthier, and filled with new energy and vitality. More importantly he says that he is a healthier pastor for his church, a healthier husband for his wife, a healthier father for his children.
How did he do it?
He did not join a high tech gym, count calories, purchase expensive meals or join one of the latest fad diets. Instead, he simply shifted his diet away from processed foods, reduced his meat consumption, drank more water, ate as many vegetables and fruits as he wanted and was never hungry, and walked every day: A simple and sustainable lifestyle change”
fifty pounds in 3 months? wow . . . i know that if i stay away from *everything* made from wheat (& ice cream) the pounds melt fast . . . but fifty lbs? wow
filbertz – i have to differ on uses of the cat . . . #82′s link is the sublime exploitation IMHO
I think I am going to become Anglican.
And fly remote controlled helicopters on the side.
The Rockies won, defeating the Dodgers in the series.
The Episcopal Church in town is small. They don’t have a web page and only street parking. Wonder what they are like? they do have a phone # though. I always liked the Midford Books from Jan Karon. Father Tim was an Episcopal I think.
Em,
I think they hypnotized the cat before they flew him though…
yes, the cat that flew did look . . . ahem . . . hypnotized
One more from Capon:
“For one thing, our preachers tell us the wrong story entirely, saying not a word about the dark side–no, that’s too weak–about the dark center of the Gospel. They can’t bring themselves to come within a country mile of the horrendous truth that we are saved in our deaths, not by our efforts to lead a good life. Instead, they mouth the canned recipes for successful living they think they congregations want to hear. It makes no difference what kind of success they urge on us: “spiritual” or “religious” success is as irrelevant to the Gospel as is success in health, money, or love. Nothing counts but the cross.”
– Robert Farrar Capon, The Foolishness of Preaching
I wish I lived in Midford right now.
The Orthodox Priest explanation was amazing, I personally know people who would have almost become violet in hearing it especially the God loves us even when we sin unless we are saved aspect of it. In their version God loathes with an Eternal hatred the vast majority of men women and children. With deep eternal passion, much like they do.
IMV – Fr. Steve Robinson (sp?) is very presumptuous in explaining away Protestantism’s view of man’s condition and God’s provision as opposed to his orthodox one – but, if that is as far as Protestantism has taken one into God’s love, it might be well to switch – heaven knows, we are plagued with poor teachers who might, themselves, do better donning a robe and the restrictions of tradition and sacrament
IMV – here’s good Protestant teaching in action: (it’s a long session, tho)
http://www.gty.org/video/Pulpit/V8290-339 (if this link works)
post script to the link . . . i am not sold on the premillennial stand, and certainly not 100% sure that present day Israel is about to usher it in . . .
– my point is that the above is good teaching – the folding chairs? well . . .
Em I deeply respect you and you are correct in your view about protestant theology for the most part, I respect your view of gty. I am sure this is me but I literally cannot stand Dr. MacArthur I really cant stand that guy in the least. I cant even read his blog or sermons. I am working on not “feeling” like this but gty in my skewed vision, not I mention my skewed vision personifies Fr. Robinson’s view. But out of my respect for you as a person I will be reconsidering my view. God be with you and yours.
Our Friend JJS dropped a bomb late last week. I just saw it this am on FB:
http://www.creedcodecult.com/2012/06/heartfelt-farewell-to-pca.html#comment-form
Papias, thanks and wow what a farewell letter.
Wishing JJS a vision and sense of the abiding presence of The Resurrected Jesus, Who will be his ever present guide and strength as he seeks to sort out his understanding of these theological points. May he begin receiving more love than consternation, more grace than disdain, more hugs from others who are also familiar with the cost of sojourning outside the camp
Wow! The most intelligent and one of the most thoughtful Christians I know has let go of Sola scriptura. I know he will find it to be the huge relief I found it to be when I let go of it ten years ago.
God bless you, Jason
Is that Orthodox Britney Spears by any chance?
OBS is another dude. JJS is Stellman.
Fascinating read over there…and been there. Still recognize the holes in Sola S and F. It’s tough to resolve and takes a lot of pretzeling.
Scripture is paradoxical / dualistic / contradictory both in word and example. It just is folks.
…and PLEASE just read that last comment and absorb it, don’t fire back. I’m done talking about that issue and not looking for a debate.
brian, i understand and appreciate your kindness – i have prejudices, too (my favorite teacher called them ‘reactor factors’ ) – i think that’s why the Pentecostal movement never got a hold on me – i concede that our Faith blooms in many gardens . . .
Scripture, being essentially a portable library of our faith’s significant documents authored over millenia by disparate writers on disparate subjects with ever evolving audiences, goals and purposes, has common themes and threads but to force the assumption that every word has direct and equal weight to life applications without proper context and while being required to disavow other reasonably informed understandings of humanity and culture is a really tough thing to require anyone to do, especially when they are required to sign what amounts to a sworn declaration.
JJS shows a lot of integrity to be honest and state that he cannot live within the tension. He will be fine when he reaches the ability to compartmentalize, even as a teacher, or to own an understanding of a matter with confidence, then tell his critics that they actually do the same and to chill.
It reminds me of my exit interview with an employer regarding policy VS real life. I was candidly told there was “what he was required to tell me” and then there was “reality”…
“our Faith blooms in many gardens”
Em, that is beautiful
sola scriptura, sola fide – that’s the danger with labels – we have to devise them and then we have to explain them and then defend our explanations and we get tied up in a morass of our fallible human nature . . . anyone know if the Church had categories and labels before the scientific era?
paradoxical, dualistic, contradictory describes our grasp of our mind and it’s brain very well
G, it’s all yours, my poet friend
in many gardens as long as the soil is good, eh?
in case any stragglers stop by this thread . . . my oldest blessed me with this this morning:
“Here’s a video that brought my morning up a notch. I love this song. Of course a gardener marvels at what beauty comes out of dirt. But I was thinking of my kids and how I”m like most all moms who would die for their kids. But then I thought really how much am I? the drive to breath is pretty strong. If I was pinned to the ground looking at my child and the choice to inhale or spare my child what would I choose, really could I let that be my last breath. Yes. No question. Then I thought of Christ on the cross, and he said “It is finished.” And exhaled. For all of us? It’s a huge amount of love for one’s children- But the love for all souls in time? It’s really quite overwhelming.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWooIrU5OwI&feature=related
don’t know of its doctrinal soundness – i know the heart behind it
Since this is open blogging, did we ever cover PENAL Substitutionary Atonement? I think I’m re-thinking my position. Was God really SO offended by my sin that he wanted to brutalize me before my conversion? Was the crucifixion REALLY intended for ME? Or was God the Father crushing and defeating sin upon the cross? Would love to hear opinions. God bless you guys!
Mike,
Have you read John Stott’s “The Cross of Christ”?
I haven’t, but I’ve been told it’s really comprehensive and excellent. Knowing this master teacher and preacher’s works, I’ll bet it would be worth your while WRT this topic.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable and who’s read it could chip in.
Lord bless you.
Thanks for the heads up Lutheran. What say YOU on the topic? Or is this too touch for everyone? Seriously asking because I’m not wanting to start another big fight. I just find the topic fascinating as I never really thought about it before and I’ve realized it definitely has had implications in my relationship with God.
Penal substitution . . . it seems kind of the in thing to say that it was God who crucified Christ . . . all we can do really is ponder all the ramifications of that event (which pleases God, i suspect – dunno)
who are the main players in Scripture?
God, of course (perfection) . . . then man enters the story (vulnerable) . . . then the Serpent (rebel) and the conflict begins . . . i think what God accomplished on the cross is/was really between Him and Satan . . . He adjudicated His own holiness and justice . . . and man just choses who he’ll serve . . . the Perfect One or the rebel . . .
no doctrines there from me – just ponders
Mike,
Sorry, I’m not qualified to talk about it with any credibility. That’s why I think it’s best to first consult those who’ve studied it.
I don’t think it’s necessarily too contentious a topic. But it can become that way if the people commenting are just fobbing off an uninformed opinion, or they’re looking at it through their own theological lens in a way that they’re trying to make a quick point,instead of it leading to a discussion that leads to real understanding.
Mike,
It’s a worthwhile discussion to have.
The doctrine was unheard of basically before the ninth century.
I think the beloved and esteemed Dr. Packer has written eloquently on the topic.
I see it as the primary, but not singular, aspect of the atonement.
Well Em, Isaiah 53 actually says it was God who bruised his Son. Different theological persuasions then speculate as to what in fact was God fulfilling by dong so. The idea that Christ’s sufferings were in substitution of God’s desire to unleash wrath on me seems to contradict the revelation of God’s character as one of Grace. The counter idea is that as Christ became sin, it was SIN that was receiving God’s wrath and that by Christ’s sufferings SIN was finally dealt the blow of justice. and that by it Christ was victorious in conquering sin. At lead that’s my current understanding of of Christus Victor.
Cool Michael, thank you for the “ok.”
Here’s Packers outline:
1.God, in Denney’s phrase, ‘condones nothing’, but judges all sin as it deserves, which Scripture affirms, and my conscience confirms, to be right.
2. My sins merit ultimate penal suffering and rejection from God’s presence (conscience also affirms this), and nothing I do can blot them out.
3. The penalty due to me for my sins, whatever it was, was paid for me by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, in his death on the cross.
4. Because this is so, I through faith in him am made ‘the righteousness of God in him’, i.e. I am justified; pardon, acceptance and sonship (to God) become mine.
5. Christ’s death for me is my sole ground of hope before God. ‘If he fulfilled not justice, I must; if he underwent not wrath, I must to eternity’ (John Owen).
6.My faith in Christ is God’s own gift to me, given in virtue of Christ’s death for me: i.e. the cross procured it.
7. Christ’s death for me guarantees my preservation to glory.
8. Christ’s death for me is the measure and pledge of the love of the Father and Son to me.
9. Christ’s death for me calls and constrains me to trust, to worship, to love and to serve.
10. We don’t know.
“The idea that Christ’s sufferings were in substitution of God’s desire to unleash wrath on me seems to contradict the revelation of God’s character as one of Grace.”
That is an incomplete revelation of the attributes of God…whenever we try to make one attribute outstanding over another, we usually end up in error.
The best case of a singular attribute having primacy is that of “holy” in the OT and “love” in the NT.
Emphasizing either over “just” and other attributes is folly in my opinion.
I believe in God’s judgement. However, isn’t the PENAL part of His judgement Hell? Is God SO offended by my sin that he is wrathful towards me? And thus desires to brutalize me as was done to our Lord though out the crucifixion? If the sacrifice of Jesus is penal and we see shadows of this in the Old Testament than were the temple sacrifices penal as well? I’m fairly sure they were not. Was God so angry with Adam in the Garden that he wanted to unleash wrath on him but instead released wrath on the animals He made skins out of?
Michael,
Fascinating citation from Packer
For clarity, does Packer’s outline include
“10) We don’t know”
?
I’m getting confused
Thx
Mike A, i didn’t mean to imply that it was ‘made up’ – i meant that the church seems to go thru phases in our focus on the implications of the cross
i do firmly believe that the two main players in the drama played out at Calvary were God and Satan . . . there is a mystery as to how perfect holiness – righteousness and justice – stood and won the victory over evil as it hung in crucifixion, but it did . . . and i chose Christ, the One hanging there, the merciful Redeemer, the obedient and only begotten Son of God – the giver of life as my only hope
not trying to explain it all – just tying to focus on what i see as prime and basic in it all
i’ll shut up and pray as wiser heads debate
G, Michael nailed it with his comment after my comment, IMO.
G,
No, I put up Packers outline in it’s entirety.
It is just an outline…he has written much on the topic.
Thanks Michael for the clarification
“No doubt it is true that the subject of divine wrath has in the past been handled speculatively, irreverently, even malevolently. No doubt there have been some who have preached of wrath and damnation with tearless eyes and not pain in their hearts. No doubt the sign of small sects cheerfully consigning the whole world, apart from themselves, to hell has disgusted many. Yet if we would know God, it is vital that we face the truth concerning his wrath, however unfashionable it may be, and however strong our initial prejudices against it. Otherwise we shall not understand the gospel of salvation from wrath, nor the propitiatory achievement of the cross, nor the wonder of the redeeming love of God.”
Packer
“What manner of thing is the wrath of God?…It is not the capricious, arbitrary, bad-tempered, and conceited anger that pagans attribute to their gods. It is not the sinful, resentful, malicious, infantile anger that we find among humans.
It is a function of that holiness which is expressed in the demands of God’s moral law (“be holy, because I am holy” [1 Peter 1:16]), and of that righteousness which is expressed in God’s acts of judgment and reward…God’s wrath is “the holy revulsions of God’s being against that which is the contradiction of his holiness”; it issues in “a positive outgoing of the divine displeasure.”
And this is righteous anger – the right reaction of moral perfection in the Creator toward moral perversity in the creature. So far from the manifestation of God’s wrath in punishing sin being morally doubtful, the thing that would be morally doubtful would be for him not to show his wrath in this way. God is not just – that is, he does not act in the way that is right, he does not do what is proper to a judge – unless he inflicts upon all sin and wrongdoing the penalty it deserves.’
Packer
I agree Michael that it is an incomplete revelation of His ATTRIBUTES. I understand that God wants me to understand that He gets angry and that He is just. However, Jesus’s revelation of the Father is “fuller” than any of the prophets of Old and for lack of a better term, reveals to us that in the new covenant that we are not to relate to God based on His character of justice but on His character of Grace.
If I want to know how I’m supposed to know how God relates to ME as I express faith in the Cross I am supposed to give emphasis to the revelation of who God is through Jesus not Moses, Ezekiel, etc. So while I believe both testaments, for the Christian, we guide ourselves through the New Testament understanding of who God is in our lives not the Old Testament and particularly not the specifics of the Old Covenant. Hope I’m communicating well. Also, please understand I have JUST started to delve into this so I’m still on the journey. Forgive me if I am unable to full articulate what I mean. Thanks to all for the discussion.
Mike,
You’re asking good questions and throwing snippets of Packer may or may not be helpful.
He writes on this matter in Chapter 15 of “Knowing God” and in a number of books and articles that can be accessed online.
‘unless he inflicts upon all sin and wrongdoing the penalty it deserves.’
Yes, so God’s wrath is on SIN not on me. And I’m not trying to be cute with this or argue semantics. I think it’s an important distinction. God HATES SIN. But God LOVES ME. If I stay in unbelief than the wrath of God will ultimately PENALize me in the form of damnation. God wishes than NONE should perish. God so LOVED the world, but if one continuously rejects God’s Grace than I will suffer the fate intended for sin.
I’m gonna check out the Packer stuff soon. Thank you Michael!
Mike,
That is possible if you accept your semantical distinction.
I don’t.
I don’t believe that God wants ALL men to be saved.
“Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:11–12 ESV)
“When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.”
(John 12:36–43 ESV)
I could go on, but you get the point.
“And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.””
(Mark 4:10–12 ESV)
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”
(Romans 9:14–25 ESV)
Thus ends “The Calvinist Hour” on the PhxP…
1 Timothy 2:1-6
2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Seems to say there’s a difference between God our Savior’s desire that all people be saved contradicts God sending a delusion so some won’t be saved.
Alex,
The standard Calvinistic explanation of that verse is that Paul is speaking of all “kinds” of men as they are listed in the context.
Maybe…
I do hold to the doctrine of the two wills of God, one being His expressed desire and the other being His decretive will.
Piper does this very well.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/are-there-two-wills-in-god
Wow you know what Michael? In that case, Penal Substitutionary Atonement makes even less sense if God is sovereign that way. If God foreknew, than He has ALWAYS loved me. He has ALWAYS been for me. PSA make God seem as if He doesn’t know the extent of our sin and thus He is so offended by it that He must release wrath upon us. But if He foreknew, than He is not offended by my sin because He knows He will defeat it on my behalf. Wow…
Michael, yes. I understand that Position (and have reviewed Piper’s take and James White’s take in the past).
Since Scripture explicitly states two different takes: God wants all men to be saved, God desires all men to be saved, God sent His Son for all men etc etc, yet God hardens hearts, God sends delusions, God who chooses to have mercy on some and not on others…
…it leads me to believe that your conclusion here is accurate:
“Maybe” is a good word…and “context” is pretty subjective and often extra-biblical and requires dot-connecting and philosophical machination…that is contradicted by other Scripture. There is no Hermeneutic that is 100% air-tight and without contradiction.
“But if He foreknew, than He is not offended by my sin because He knows He will defeat it on my behalf. Wow…”
Mike, my understanding is that God’s “foreknowing” indeed means that He set His love upon you from the foundations of the earth.
However, that love did not negate the need for justice and yours and my redemption.
Thus, Christ was given for the penalty of our sin.
…in other words, Scripture is not Science or Logic or Reason.
You can apply any Hermeneutic to the Equation…and you cannot get 1+1=2
There is a flaw in every Box, based upon the Canon of Scripture being the Absolute and the Yard Stick for determining which Position is 100% “correct”.
…every Position, to be 100% ‘correct’…requires canceling out “some” other Scriptures.
1+1= Jesus Christ our Messiah.
After that the math gets fuzzy
Just finished reading the Junk Yard Dog’s biography called the King of New Orleans where he became the first Black Pro Wrestler to be the long term top headliner in a territory. When Bill Watts broke away from Leroy McGuirk’s Tri State Wrestling territory in 1978 and started up Mid South Wrestling he needed a top baby face to pop the dead Lousiana and Mississippi states. Instead of going after an established balck start such as Bobo Brazil or Rocky Johnson, Watts went with Slyvester Ritter who had very limited experience. Watt’s gave Ritter the Junk Yard Dog moniker after the song Bad Bad Leroy Brown. Watts also gave JYD entrance music which was unheard of in the late 70′s. JYD headlined several Superdome shows and still holds the record for pro wrestling attendance there with over 26,000 paid fans to see him vanquish Michael Hayes after the Freebird hair cream removal angle. JYD was the top babyface of the territory from 1979-1984. In 1982 Watts expanded his territory to include Houston, Okalahoma and Arkansas after Tri State folded. Mid South became one of the hottest territories in the 80′s. In 1984 JYD left Mid South and went to the WWF but he even tho he has a headliner and number 3 babyface he started to gain weight and develop a drug problem. The WWF also turned him nito a cariacture of himself rather than the tough as nails Black Superhero that he was in Mid South. He was also built like a mack truck in Mid South and the reason he got over so well there was that the booker never allowed him to get saved by a white wrestler so the black fans loved JYD and respected that he was his own man. The Jackie Robinson of wrestling. Wrestling in New Orleans was never the same after he left Mid South
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNU61oEXgF4
Mike,
I’m just giving you my understanding based on my study of Scripture and my own scholarly tradition.
Don’t let either discourage you from seeking things out yourself…
Alex said:
“Seems to say there’s a difference between God our Savior’s desire that all people be saved contradicts God sending a delusion so some won’t be saved.”
Yeah but that’s because they have refused to believe the truth
SRod, I LOVE the Junk Yard Dog! JYD!!!
He was one of our favorites (me and my bro and all our friends) growing up.
Alex,
yup him and Jimmy Snuka the “Superfly”