May 292012
- Tim Challies apologizes. Micha Boyett comments. So does Scot McKnight (mainly in the comments thread of his post)
- Tony P. thinks out loud.
- An interview with Jennifer Knapp.
- Gospel confusion in Christian enviromentalism.
- Rachel Held Evans’ “Ask a…” series turns to a Christian feminist.
- N.T. Wright on Genesis, evolution and worldview.
- J.I. Packer’s birthday present.
- Eric Reitan: “because the level of certitude that they long to invest in their beliefs is hard for them to preserve in the face of sincere, authentic disagreement, thus leading them to want to deny that any sincere disagreement really exists.“
- Scot McKnight at BioLogos, part 1, part 2 and part 3.
- Ross Douthat calls America “a nation of heretics”. (HT)
- Mark Bauerlein’s journey away from atheism.
233 Responses to “Linkathon 3/30, part 1”
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Ok there is ONE RESPONSE… thank you
From the Jennifer Knapp interview:
Q. “What gives you joy or excites you?”
A. “I love it when I meet someone whose face lights up when it finally dawns on them that they matter. It’s a real gift to be present when someone realizes that not only are they important just for being themselves, but they are significant to the greater community around them. Being an agent of compassion, kindness and justice for others begins in realizing the significance of our opportunity as individuals to effect that change.”
Emphasis mine.
#7 – Packer’s typewriter made me smile – i wish i still had the manual portable that was given to me when i started college; the sound pounding those keys produces can be very satisfying – inspiring even . . . but i felt guilty for having something that someone else could be making good use of and gave it away – one should always be suspicious of guilt . . . could be God was displeased with me for feeling guilty about something He’d given me . . . it’s not easy, eh?
Tony P has some very wise ponders on his site, BTW
The Packer birthday story is one of my favorites!
Shameless self-promotion link love (since the big guy never links my crazy rants LOL):
http://blogs.christianpost.com/voices-in-my-head/chuck-smith-calvary-chapel-founder-says-mormons-are-christians-what-say-you-10146/
Well, since it’s so slow on the “linkathon” thread I thought I’d share a link with you you all. This young man is the son of the man who was instrumental in sharing the gospel with me over 37 years ago that led to my conversion. He died in 2007 of a brain tumor, however, his son Jon followed in his dad’s steps as a Pastor.
Jon McIntosh – Lead Pastor, Grace Church Federal Way, WA tells his story of how their church is reaching beyond the walls of the church and into their community. Very compelling testimony that I thought might inspire some here, especially the Pastors that participate and visit this site.
http://vimeo.com/30495993
Scott, i enjoyed watching the vimeo – sounds like Pastor McIntosh was blessed with a good, faithful group of people, also . . .
Em, yes, he speaks very highly of those that God has entrusted to him from a pastoral position.
Scot McKnight links were wonderful, what an insightful view it helped me a great deal.
BrianD,
Thank you for the Bishop Wright videos…what a teacher.
Once a guest speaker was on, and finally one of the local leaders stood and said, “Brother, we’re Holy Ghost people here. If you have something from the Lord for us, say on, but if not, please sit down.”
I am sure NT Wright is a good man with good things to say. But when I hear him, I cannot help but think, Brother, if you have something from the Lord….
Dansk, God speaks both inside and outside our traditions, though He may not be speaking to everyone and everyone may not be able to hear what He is saying. As the scripture says, ‘he who has ears to hear, let him hear’…
Michael, I’m glad you’re enjoying them.
The Mr. Challies was also interesting I read many blog posts about the apology and the kind differ offer. I often apologies and kept short accounts when I was in Christian ministry and fellowship in the local community. The response it made people either laugh or puke or both. I dont blame them I am sure I did something pathetic, I can remember having my guts ripped out for being human, which is vile, filthy and evil. I get that. But apologies were viewed with utter disgust and contempt but I would still apologies for being alive, taking up their air and other such vile sins. Granted this is a bit dramatic but it really is viewed that way. In some of the responses to Mr. Challies one would think he was poking a John Calvin voodoo doll or something like that.
Ann Voskamp was also ripped for being to much in love and to sensual what ever that means. And I think Mr Silva broke a keyboard or two typing out is “prothetic” warnings of undercover Jesuits wearing Mormon underwear preaching UFO aliens.
Don’t know who Ross Douthat is who wrote the article for # 10 but the comment below is an example of the inroads the Mormon church has made in their efforts to be seen as another Christian denomination.
“Overall, the growth in American Christianity today is mostly nondenominational and Mormon…..”
BrianD #13, well put.
“Jesus Christ, Our Savior: Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer. The Holy Bible teaches us that Jesus Christ’s mother was Mary, His father on earth was Joseph, that He was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, and labored with Joseph as a carpenter. When he turned 30, He began a three-year ministry of teaching, blessing, and healing the people of the Holy Land. He also organized His Church and gave His apostles “power and authority” (Luke 9:1) to assist in His work.
But what do we mean when we say He is the Savior of the world? The Redeemer? Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father. Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, he is very literally our Savior and Redeemer. In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever.”
“Faith in Jesus Christ: A firm belief that Jesus Christ is our Savior inspires us to follow His teachings.
Faith in Jesus Christ leads us to do good works. The Holy Bible teaches, “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:20). This does not mean that we can be saved by good works, for no amount of good works can cleanse our souls of even a trace of sin without the power of Christ’s sacrifice. But those who have genuine faith in Christ will want to follow Him and do the kinds of works He did, such as helping the poor and needy, caring for the sick, visiting the lonely, and showing good will and love to all people.
Faith in Jesus Christ is a firm conviction that He is who He says He is and that He will help us when we seek Him. Faith in Christ means trusting in Him, remembering Him, and following His teachings. It is a conviction that He is the Son of God, “The way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6).
As we follow His example and live according to His words, we will feel our faith growing until it becomes an active force in our lives, helping us repent of our sins and deal with our challenges. Faith in Jesus Christ isn’t a simple declaration of belief—it is a source of power we can renew every day by studying His words, praying, and by trying harder to follow His example.”
Anyone have a beef with the last two posts? Any disagreement? Care to know where these Creeds come from?
“Ann Voskamp was also ripped for being to much in love and to sensual what ever that means.”
it means that there is a fine line here . . . too much in love? too sensual?
it is very, very difficult to pull off what Solomon did in his love poem: to convey adoration that can apply either to God or to a one and only human lover
attempting to speak as frankly as i can, because there is a real danger here – a well meaning and, i guess well written, human viewpoint of a personal relationship with God could become a very carnal aspiration of the less discerning, but enthusiastic reader
the smell of my husband and the smell of my baby are both precious and very earthy – the sweet fragrance of Christ rises above what my nostrils respond to – the mate, the baby and my Lord are beloved and i love(d) their fragrances, but does my body respond the same in all three instances? is ecstasy a generic? hmmm . . .
a joyous moment of climactic love with God? well God invented the experience, so who knows? BUT i’m willing to wait for Eternity on that one . . . couldn’t handle it in my flesh
that “ring of fire” childbirth thing? one skilled person’s poetic expression? if it speaks of God to some . . ? . . well that is “between a woman, her readers and her God” . . . i guess
Alex, i’m guessing you’re posting from Mormonism’s writing – i’d say what i say to the young men who knock on my door – “there may come a time when you decide that your teachings don’t make sense and if that should happen, don’t give up on Jesus Christ. He is Who He says He is.”
I wonder if Chuck Smith is as gracious about Calvinists. He thinks many Mormons are saved…seriously, does he think Calvinists are “saved” and just disagrees with their theology or does he and Bryson assign the hard core Calvinists to the pit? Any CC guys know?
Mormons are not monotheists. They do not believe that God the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the only God there is, He is one of millions. And a good Mormon man can become a god, too. Not just holy person or a saint but a god, just like Jehovah.
If that’s not heresy I don’t know what is. The very least I expect out of a Christian is that he believe the God of the Bible is the Creator of everything there is, both visible and invisible.
“I believe in one God the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible.”
The first line of the Nicene Creed, the very basics of both Judaism and Christianity and probably Islam, too. But not Mormonism.
X, certainly a common opinion in Christianity, but many including Chuck Smith disagree and think that many Mormons are saved b/c of their Faith in Jesus as Savior/Messiah…even if there are doctrinal differences. Heck, Chuck Smith states “the real me is not my spirit, the real me is not my flesh” which is non-orthodox, but that doesn’t mean Chuck isn’t saved.
Correction: Chuck states, “The real me is spirit, the real me is not my flesh”
Alex, I imagine one could find JW writings that are worded in such a way as to make them seem mainstream as the Mormons do. In looking at your two posts I see they refer to Jesus as the son of god as opposed to God the Son, second person of the Trinity. It’s a very slick move on their part.
I posted the above, not to engage Alex in a debate, but for the sake of any lurker who may be confused by the recent apathy concerning the heresy of Mormonism we are seeing these days.
Our Christian ancestors died to defend the truth against far milder heresies than Mormonism.
E, do you think there are many Mormons who are saved b/c of their faith in Jesus, despite the other stuff they believe that is probably in error, or is at least in error according the Consensus of the Councils and what is considered orthodox Christianity?
X, where’s the line? Which of the issues can anyone be wrong on w/o being cast into hell?
Are the Mormons lying about their Creeds I posted above? Or, do they just add stuff that many disagree with in addition to those Foundational Creeds?
certainly a common opinion in Christianity<<<<
It's the *only* opinion in Christianity. Any other opinion is not Christianity.
LOL on the not engaging me in debate, I wouldn’t want to either
Not getting sucked in any further.
Alex, I believe Mormonism originated in the pit of hell. That being said the question is in what Jesus do Mormons put their faith in? If they put their faith in a jesus who was brought into being through a sex act, a jesus who is not God the Son, a jesus who is not the second person of the Trinity then I don’t know how they can be saved.
Do I believe there could be believers in the Mormon church despite their false beliefs I would say yes. I’ve talked with too many Mormons through the years who clearly understood we had beliefs that could never intersect, the most important being who is Jesus.
Their writings contradict each other as well as the Bible. That is indisputable fact.
“It’s the *only* opinion in Christianity. Any other opinion is not Christianity.”
Tell that to CS and Billy Graham
E, much like Bryson is famous for misrepresenting the Calvinist Position, I have found in my direct talks with Mormons and researching their beliefs and getting into the nuance of it, that what is commonly understood as their “beliefs” as presented by Evangelicals or EO etc is not what they believe. Now, there are some differences, no doubt, but not in the same manner I previously understood…unless they’re lying, but that is what they state on their websites and it is what is stated to me in discussions…and unless I choose to believe they are intentionally misrepresenting their “true” beliefs, like a Bryson does to Calvinists, I am left with an open opinion, similar to Chuck Smith and Billy Graham.
Alex, if ever there was a moment for you to somehow have a moment of clarity, it would be now.
In the “Glut” thread you wrote 3 posts. In all 3 you arrogantly claim to speak as to what I believe to someone else (Chile), and though the thread was not about the so-called systemic abuses within Calvary Chapel, you tried your best to make it just that. (And by the way, you wiffed on all three comments. Maybe next time try not to speak for someone else besides yourself)
I ignored you there, as I have for months now. And as I will after this post when you no doubt start to message me multiple times again.
For you to take Chuck Smith’s answer to one phone call and argue, as you do repeatedly in this thread and on your website “Chuck believes Mormons are Christians” is such a ridiculous stretch from reality that it speaks volumes on your capabilities to realistically report on anything, including the abuse issues you focus on.
Even those who would challenge the answer Chuck gave on radio would certainly not use it as a club to misrepresent that the man “Says Mormons are Christians”
I went to your website and see right below the silly Chuck Smith Mormon comment another post….
This post gives encouragement in the comments to mock pastor, John Miller, recovering from a stroke, that yet continues to serve the Lord as he has for 39 years.
I see the next post is the mocking of a church that is a vandalism victim – with lots of assumptions about the supposed lack of stewardship etc.
It’s a crying shame that after all these weeks, when certainly I (and others here) would give you the benefit of the doubt if Alex could just speak for Alex – you just can’t.
And all the little smiley faces in the world after your comments doesn’t change a thing.
Could I ask an administrator to do me a favor I posted a rant at this time and date, it is silly and I was having one of those moments. Its not edifying could you please delete it, thanks I really appreciate of of your patience with me. thanks brian.
Brian May 30, 2012 at 9:00 PM
You’re wrong Steve, but glad to see you use your real name.
I’m actually in the process of changing the site to CalvaryChapelNews.com (Michael knows about it) and those articles were part of the new enhanced direction to aggregate Calvary Chapel News.
And, I’m not mocking Chuck’s position on thinking many Mormons are Christians, I think he’s right on that one.
Let’s try to keep things positive and assume the best.
And, Steve, the messages were to try and establish a dialogue to make some peace, but I see you are pretty bitter about things. No problem. Been there.
Alex, Calvinism really has no place in a discussion of Mormonism.
I believe Galatians chapter 1 is a good barometer on how God feels about the Mormon faith. Twice, through the Apostle Paul he states that even if an angel (Moroni) was to bring a different gospel to let them be accursed.
If you’re relying on their websites and what Mormons themselves tell you I can very easily see how you would never get to the truth of their beliefs. Ask a Mormon friend if they believe Jesus is God the Son, second person of the Trinity and then ask what they believe concerning the Trinity. You will find what they believe has nothing to do with Christianity.
Ask them if they believe God used to be a man just like you or me. Then ask a Mormon man if he has the hope of becoming a God equal to God. If they say no to either question they are flat out lying.
The Mormon faith is exposed from their own writings. A potential convert won’t hear any of it at their front door. Mormon missionaries are trained quite well in how to make their faith very attractive.
Few and far between. But the occasional, yes.
E, I hear you and I’ve been skeptical (which is my nature) but they’re either really good liars or what you think is their belief isn’t what they really believe. Many seem to really believe that Jesus Christ is Savior/Redeemer/Messiah and that their works validate their faith similar to what many Evangelicals and even EO claim regarding “works”
Steve, I’m very sorry for the obvious hurt I’ve caused you. I know by how you’ve responded to me on this thread…and I know from how I’ve dealt with my being wronged and being hurt.
You’re a good pastor and a good man, whether we agree on the CC stuff or not.
Steve, for your consideration, when I state “Chuck Smith says Mormons are Christians” it is in the context that Chuck believes that being Mormon doesn’t preclude one from being “saved”…which is IMO correct.
To contrast this for clarity/context sake: I would not say that about Muslims and I don’t think Chuck would either…so there is a clear difference. Chuck does believe one can be Mormon and be saved, that is what he stated…with caveat (a caveat I agree with and that is clear in the article).
I don’t think one can be Muslim and be saved, there is a line that is crossed in that example…and I think Chuck would agree (but I could be wrong, we all speculate to a degree about other’s positions).
Well I for one see Mormonism as an evil non Christian religion, especially going back too it’s roots which were to deceive the elect.
I do not think that a person can come to Christ through Mormonism – not a chance.
What we do see are Christians who have moved on to Mormonism, for whatever reason, but only to their own harm. I think these may be the people Chuck Smith is talking about – saying yes some Mormons are Christians.
I disagree! Although some may just be playing around with Mormonism, I think those who make a commitment have given up the Christian faith – which creates a problem for the OSAS crowd.
Let me a tad more clear – I don’t think Mormons are any closer to being Christians than I do the local witch doctor.
Christianity begins with Jesus question “who do you say that I am”?
Answer that one wrong and everything else is heresy.
Mormons are heretics.
BrianD, i’ve finally succumbed to consider and have “discovered” Challies thanks to you and have bookmarked his site
the link to McNight has an IMV excellent summation of Voskamp’s skill and place – his own ccmment #7 :
“…..Poets ride the thermals, and they visible only to the poet and not to the outsider. (Watch the raptors soar on the thermals.) ….. I thank God for the mystics and know their temptations to go too far are just a variant of the theologians’ temptation to go too far as well.”
i pray we all grow in our discernment 1 Peter 1 . . .
spinning off of #s 47 & 48 . . . it seems to me that it can be proved that the root of every heretical doctrine is pride and rebellion
Actually, the Bible is the root of all heretical doctrine.
Alex, Having seen your tenaciousness through the years I’m gonna opine that I believe you’re being a bit lazy on the Mormon issue. The thing is I come to this conclusion because I think you are an emotional man. I’ll explain but keep in mind the following are my observations and you are free to reject them.
Often I think you have tunnel vision. You identify the enemy, for lack of a better word, and you make it a goal to get the truth out there concerning said person and what they have done to hurt you or others. In your pursuit of the truth I’ve disagreed with your methods as you have taken a no holds barred approach in cementing your points. Thus you have no problem in taking to task those you see as being directly or indirectly complicit in the wrongs you perceive. The result is you have alienated many in doing so. You remind me of the dog that will not let go of the bone. I sense a lot of pain within you.
You live in an area permeated with Mormons. They have never hurt you or anyone you love. In fact they display the character you so deeply want to see in those you take to task. When they talk to you they seem to say stuff that seems pretty right on as far as how they present their personal faith to you. Their web sites seem harmless enough.
When it becomes personal like this and they appear to be saying the correct things I can see where anyone would want to see these kind folks escape eternal judgment. This is where I believe you have gotten soft and lazy.
You bring GB and CS into the conversation to make a point but those points do not in any way get to the heart of the Mormon faith.
The church has been firm in its stance on the Mormon church from the beginning. They are a cult and are handing people a cup of lemonade as they lead them off the cliff into eternal darkness.
As Michael stated above every cult and false religion has this in common. They do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh. second person of the Trinity. Without exception they make Him someone He is not. You can’t get to Heaven believing in the wrong Jesus. If we open the door for Mormons then we gotta do so for everyone else. Because they will present a sanitized version of who they think He is. Sounds good but it’s demonic.
In doing this they attack our Savior who suffered and died and rose again for us and any that would cry out in repentance.
The Mormons have a different gospel and a different Jesus and their jesus can not save them. When that realization hits home our hearts break for these people who are blinded to who the real Jesus is. They are a fast growing church and they are winning the PR war in the eyes of the world and sadly there are those in the church that want to dance with them.
The Mormon question is just one more thing the world will use to paint us as bigoted, mean spirited, and judgmental people when the fact is it is God who has already judged them.
I’ll link a debate from years ago where the late Walter Martin debated a Mormon apologist. He knew their faith better than they did. He didn’t mince words and he had a heart for those who been deceived by the Mormon church. Some in the church would probably want to tar and feather Mr. Martin if he was here today. Lord knows we need more men and women like him.
http://www.apologetics315.com/2010/07/debate-is-mormonism-christianity-walter.html
http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=5065
This is an amazing resource on Mormonism.
The idea being proposed here is that if you want to know what a Mormon really believes, talk to them and you will discovered they have sound beliefs and all that stuff about the planet Kolob and Jesus being the brother of Satan, etc, is just a bunch of cult-buster propaganda.
Well I did ask a Mormon missionary once some hard questions. He was at my door pushing the Book of Mormon as “Another revelation of Jesus Christ” and soft-peddling the other stuff. I pressed and he got mad and nearly hit me in the face. No fooling, his face was red and his hand was in a fist and his partner held his arm to prevent him hitting me.
So be careful, folks, if you want to ask them hard questions.
And do I think the missionaries, etc, are lying to Christians? One word answer: YES.
Agree with Xenia.
Mormonism is from Satan.
But you know, maybe this could work out for the best. Maybe there’s a new generation of Mormons who have only been taught the sanitized version of Mormonism?
In the past, cults have repented of false doctrine and converted en masse to a more orthodox form of Christianity. Two cases:
1. World Wide Church of God (Armstrongism) dropped most of the heretical stuff and became a pretty regular evangelical denomination.
2. The Holy Order of Mans converted to Eastern Orthodoxy and formed the Christ the Saviour Brotherhood.
But Mormonism is so big and so entrenched, especially in Utah, that it would take a miracle. But it took a miracle for all of us to turn from our sins and to the Lord. With God, anything is possible.
And Mormonism has a history of dropping problematic doctrines such as polygamy and the all-white priesthood. Now if they can drop the polytheism and the fairy tales about the Aztecs being Jews!
Increasingly I am hearing:
1. Homosexuality is not a sin.
2. Mormonism is just a Christian denomination.
When Christ returns, will He find faith on the earth?
E, X, Michael etc. some of the Mormons I dialogue with answer Jesus’s question the same way Peter did, that Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the living God”
Now I know there are major differences in going extra-biblical to explain some things that aren’t specifically addressed in Scripture and the Mormon belief is that Joseph Smith (not unlike some in Evangelicalism) got a special word from God about some stuff and filled in the blanks. I see it to a lesser degree among many of the 30,000+ other Christian denoms…even CC to some degree. Chuck Smith got a word from God about doing his Brand of Christianity etc. and CS’s doctrine of Anthropology and of the Resurrection isn’t solid orthodoxy either…but it doesn’t make him not saved or a heretic etc.
Some Lutherans believe that if you aren’t baptized you aren’t saved, probably incorrect, probably added to the Gospel message, etc, but we wouldn’t say they aren’t saved b/c they believe something that might be incorrect that adds to Faith/Belief in Jesus as the only way unto Salvation.
I am assuming the best and trying to be loving to my Mormon friends and believing what they clearly state to me and not putting words in their mouths. It could be that the Mormons are growing in some areas and coming more toward Evangelicalism today.
I hear a lot of what some would call “hate” and vitriol in how you guys are addressing them, things I’ve been accused of when addressing CC issues.
“Christ, the Son of the living God…”
But St. Peter believed there was only ONE GOD, not a million of them. And St. Peter did not believe that he himself was going to be his own god on his own planet.
Suppose St. Peter had said, as the Mormons really believe “I believe You are the brother of Satan, the son of one of a million gods, a created being.”
You, Alex, who claim to be so astute and discerning, have bought the current Mormon propaganda. You have been fooled.
Alex, you are coming off completely ignorant on this. Go to my link in #53 and see what the Mormons themselves say about their beliefs.
Yes, it is way, way different than an evangelical who “gets a word from God”.
Well, I did get sucked in after all.
As I said earlier, I wrote what I have written for the sake of any lurkers who may be confused by the current climate and not to engage in a debate with anyone.
So I’m done here.
X that isn’t a very nice comment…but God bless you anyways.
Xenia, I hope your “done here” just means you are done with this thread, and not “done HERE.”
You are loved and respected here!
Except to add, for the sake of the Lurkers, that Islam and Mormonism have the exact same source, a false angel who gave a false prophet a false book. The Koran for the Muslims and the Book of Mormon for the Mormons.
Except I am inclined to think Joseph Smith never even heard from a false angel, I think he just made the whole thing up.
Yes, X, you are loved and respected here and I am not attacking you or CC. You seem to have a personal grudge against me, much like Steve, and I’m sorry for anything I’ve done to contribute to that negative attitude. I forgive many of you on here for the shots you’ve taken at me in the past and I hope you’ll forgive me for the things you believe I’ve done wrong to you as well.
Nonnie, I am trying to be done with this thread, that’s all!
Josh, my Mormon friends would respond that White takes things out of context, much like Bryson would argue that White “doesn’t understand” his position and presents things out of context as well.
I forgive you Alex.
But I do not ask your forgiveness for speaking the truth.
It was your attitude and tone X, and your passive aggressiveness, but that’s between you and God.
I don’t want to dominate a thread, so I’ll move on today. I think the Mormon issue is both fluid and misunderstood, unless I’m being massively lied to and conned…but I don’t think I am. In summary, I think that Chuck Smith and Billy Graham are right on this one if the particular Mormon has faith in Jesus Christ as their Messiah/Savior/Redeemer which many profess and many have “good fruit” in their lives that match the Fruit of the Spirit. That’s been my experience. Others of you seem to have a strong opinion w/o really knowing any Mormons.
Alex – “It could be that the Mormons are growing in some areas and coming more toward Evangelicalism today.”
Where I live, surrounded by many of them, the Mormons do give off this impression of moving more towards Evangelicalism; however, it’s a part of the Mormon leadership’s strategic plan to appear more mainstream.
The lingo became more Evangelical, though not the meanings they attached to those words.
My Mormon neighbors were so kind and helpful, until my son refused their children’s plea for him to become a Mormon. Then I studied their missionary presentation of their plan of salvation and asked the next visiting Mormon missionaries very straight forward questions, with grace, of course. But we became marked, the word was reported back to the local Stake House and we were to be avoided from then on.
One of my child’s friend’s fathers is a Mormon Bishop. There are two very different sides to him. The kind side is great! The side that reacts to the truth about Jesus Christ is … I’ll go so far as to say … demonic.
The “other” side never showed until the Mormons were totally convinced that I was not going to be open to their beliefs. As long as they thought they had hope with winning me over, they were exceptionally kind people. My former Mormon friends say that was how they were taught to treat people. It could be, Alex, that the Mormons think you are open enough that they may still be able to win you over.
I’m not suggesting that you be unloving to your neighbors, just that you will see another side when they see you as unwinnable or a threat to their beliefs.
I’m calling this discussion. Mormon theology as presented in their own official documents and so called apostolic writings defines Jesus as a created being. it is also polytheistic.
They are convicted by their own words and belief in their doctrine will bring eternal condemnation.
Period.
Just read your #72
I do know people who I believe made professions of faith and then were won over by Mormon culture. Could it be, this is what you have seen in some of the Mormons you know?
Any discussion around Mormons or JWs must be centered on Jesus.
In my dealings with Mormons, they have even stated that they believe the Jesus is “God’s Son.”
But they have a different understanding of what that term means.
Ask them if they believe that Jesus is fully God, they will say no. When they say “God’s Son”, they mean something akin to saying He was “God Junior”.
When my mother was dying there was a huge urgency to get her ‘saved’. She would say she believed in Jesus as a great teacher, also believed in the teachings of Edgar Cayce, Kahil Gibran and many others. After her death I was told by cc’ers at the main mecca that if she called upon the name of the Lord – despite any and all of her crazy doctrinal/superstition/theological ideas- she was be saved. Instead of comfort, it added to my confusion already building between what CC taught about many things compared with the rest of the church throughout history. And seemed so contradictory to all I’d been taught in CC all the rest of my life.
All I really cling to now is that without love, everything else – every doctrine, belief, etc- is just a bunch of noise.
Some may argue that making sure folks’ doctrine is correct is the most loving thing they can do.
Some argue that Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus was pretty much in the same category as Smith’s & Mohameds. After all we only have Paul’s word for it. And it is speculated that he was the forefather of the church becoming an organization rather than a way of being the children of God in the world.
Tired of the arguing. Completely and totally. My brain can barely remember what I did yesterday, what I need to do today. So this kiddo is all about keeping it as utterly simple as possible. Clanging cymbals make my head hurt.
“I am assuming the best and trying to be loving to my Mormon friends and believing what they clearly state to me and not putting words in their mouths. It could be that the Mormons are growing in some areas and coming more toward Evangelicalism today.”
Alex, Assuming the best has gotten me into a lot of trouble through the years. You are quick to point out how good intentions don’t cut in when it comes to the issues you know of within CC. Yet you’re willing to accept what Mormons with good intentions share with you when it’s clear their church reject Christianity.
Satan is a deceiver and he’s the best at it. Look around the world and you can see it. Check out what Josh posted. Listen to some of the Walter Martin debate. The Mormon apologist tries to make the case for Godhood for goodness sake.
I get angry because of what is at stake. We are talking about eternity and the real possibility Mormons will be separated from God forever. It’s love that constrains me to try and warn them they have been deceived. Nothing I post is personal towards people as much as it is towards the system that has them in bondage.
E, I’m assuming the best now with CC as well. I just made peace with Rolph. I am beginning to buy into the “Law of Love” argument. It feels right and good.
…but the Fundie Legalist in me is kicking and screaming!
Alex, i know Mormons as neighbors and as family and i have strong opinions . . . my take is that they are arrogant and at their core do not manifest grace as are some of “us,” i guess . . . kind of like getting one’s shorts in a bunch and calling someone out because one doesn’t like what they perceive to be someone’s attitude here on the PhxP . . .
Alex, I’m happy to read you’re changing in your attitude towards CC. I hope to see that on the net as time moves on. You can be loving in exposing truth where necessary within CC and at the same time we can do the same thing towards the Mormon church.
E, the only “truth” one can expose is clear-cut actions…doctrine, too subjective, too based off of a Group’s particular interpretation of Scripture (which isn’t necessarily the true meaning of Scripture, it is their interpretation of what they think the Scripture is saying…which is usually twisted to fit their Theological System/Position).
Even exposing the clear-cut actions, like abuse, can be subjective, especially when it comes to “spiritual abuse”…but child abuse, adultery, breaking the law in financial matters, forgery, smuggling, fraud is probably pretty cut-and-dry if it is “proven”…but to what end? The bad guys sin, they’re sinners and God allows them to do their thing and most in the church are cool with it if it doesn’t affect them personally. Just life.
The plan is to still report on some stuff in CC, but take a different tone (work in progress) and change the name and focus to more of a news aggregator for Calvary Chapel and link the headlines that pop up in the media, while still doing some opinion pieces etc, but in a more constructive tone (hopefully). We’ll see.
…and we’re all the “bad guy” to some degree or another. Each one of us in our Group. We’re all guilty of the same or “lesser” sins…but sins none-the-less.
anybody know what it means when your cpmputer screen displays: “Code corrupted. Insert fresh copy.” .. ? ..
what code? what fresh copy? how do i do that? or do i do that?
Alex, amen to your #84 – we all have the same basic wiring system
Christian Post is featuring my Chuck Smith/Mormonism article on the front page
“…and we’re all the “bad guy” to some degree or another. Each one of us in our Group. We’re all guilty of the same or “lesser” sins…but sins none-the-less.
Objective reality dismisses the above statement. All things are not the same.
This is trying to make things that are not the same categorically, and is not a sound or reasonable way of navigating human relations. Better to deal with actual issues, solve them or move on.
I am not “the bad guy”.
I am not guilty of same or lesser sins.
Speak for yourself, you do not speak for me or any individual here at Phoenix Preacher.
Period.
G, I and many others disagree. The context is that we are all sinners, but you might be right, who knows.
G, that wasn’t a very nice comment. Let’s try to keep it positive.
G, I must’ve offended you as well (by your tone). I apologize. Let’s move forward and assume the best. I think we can discuss things nicely and be more loving and patient with each other.
This defense of Mormonism as a Christian religion is absolutely ridiculous. Look back to their writings – they don;t think we are Christians. Joseph Smith made it clear that there was no true witness in the world until he came along to reclaim the faith.
Without saying who is right, we and the Mormons cannot both be Christians. Take your pick.
MLD, Luther thought some things about the Jews that Lutherans today don’t agree with. Mormons are evolving and they aren’t as monolithic as you assume.
MLD, many in the 30,000+ denoms in Evangelicalism (and mainline) don’t think the other guys are official “christians”
If I’m getting this right, you’re saying woefully ignorant Mormons, may very well be Christians? So, they don’t know what their own religion teaches, but they might accidentally be part of another one?
Josh, I’m saying that maybe you don’t understand what each and every Mormon believes and the nuance of it.
This is what George Bryson “says” that Calvinists believe…which gives the impression that Calvinists aren’t even “real” Christians:
http://www.calvarychapeltheology.com/Articles/doctrines_of_doom.html
It illustrates the problem when individuals and Groups make blanket statements about the beliefs of others and play God in defining what they “really” believe. It has been argued vehemently on here many times that “one size does not fit all” in CC land…and Reformed land…and Lutheran land etc etc. One size does not necessarily fit all in Mormon land either, not in my experience with the friends I talk to.
Well heck then, why not say Muslims are Christians too?
Did I stutter?
The position of the blog and blog owner is that Mormonismis damnable heresy.
This discussion is closed.
I will not tolerate confusion on this point.
Muslims deny that Jesus died and resurrected.
Mormons believe this (from Mormon.org):
“Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God. His birth, life, death, and resurrection fulfilled the many prophecies contained in the scriptures concerning the coming of a Savior. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge”
If the basis of your religion does not have Jesus as God, you just aren’t a Christian. The great news is that you CAN be.
Sorry Michael. Didn’t mean to carry it on. Thank you for your clarity on the issue.
Just read the “end” post. Got caught up in the ongoing dialogue. I’ll cross Mormon discussions off the official approved list.
Xenia’s point (not hers alone, but well stated throughout this thread) that Jesus is The Christ, God The Son leaves no room for nuance – period
that said, is it possible for one who does not (we do so by Faith IMHO) confess that there is a single God in three Persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit – but does confess their total depravity and their need of God’s mercy and redemption to enter into salvation? i have a very narrow window of possibility on this . . . because as soon as one says that someone less than God, Himself, therefore another created being, could answer Satan’s challenge to God, Himself, i.e., “I will be like You” – Isaiah 14 one is showing their own rebellion, i think . . . dunno
IMV – it is totally acceptable to say, i can’t understand the triunity of God, but to actively fight against it? a stand i wouldn’t want to have
would it be correct to say that Mormonism teaches a concept of god in **many** persons, with one over all and highest god? isn’t that what Satan said? praying they work their way through and out of that – could happen – will we all answer for standing without praying for God to move ?
Michael, forgive me for missing the request
“Alex says:
May 31, 2012 at 1:07 PM
G, that wasn’t a very nice comment. Let’s try to keep it positive.”
Alex,
You are hardly qualified to address civility.
Sinners, saved by grace are forever thankful, so with that in mind I’ll focus on the joy of this community and the fact that we’re all committed to loving our fellow man & woman into The Kingdom, fine tuning the theology and practice along the way.
G, just giving you the advice you gave me many times
…and it’s good advice.
Then shut up, put it into practice and prove by doing for a few months.
Ephesians 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
I know it’s Paul’s words, but Jesus, I think, said similar.
No, I won’t “shut up”…that was rude and mean and I have nothing to prove to anyone.
G, I forgive you for how you’ve treated me in the past on here (and your recent comment) and I hope you will forgive me of my offenses toward you.
Xenia said:
“Increasingly I am hearing:
1. Homosexuality is not a sin.
2. Mormonism is just a Christian denomination.
When Christ returns, will He find faith on the earth?”
This ^^^^^^
Alex is mocking us. I suggest we ignore him.
Kevin H, told you so…
No, not mocking you X, but some of you are responding how I predicted you would if I took your advice and was much nicer and focused on changing my style.
Some of you have a problem and don’t see it.
I’m committed to the change of style and emphasis on civility, love, etc. I hope you’ll follow that direction as well.
Alex,
You are the equivalent of a wife beater chiding someone for swatting their pet dog.
Please make this place better by leaving and never returning
God bless you G. You’re wrong right now. Let it go bro.
oh shoot, Alex – you blew your cover . . .
speachless…
Back to lurking and praying.
nope, make that **they** blew your cover
to quote Senator Foghorn Leghorn, “that’s a joke, son”
No cover, I think the tone of the blog since I arrived was in error and often much too unloving and negative and impolite etc…but I liked it and began to emulate it.
I chose to communicate in a manner that I thought would be the most effective in drawing attention to the critical issues and would make a dent to help curtail abuses etc. (I kind of discussed this with Rolph long ago, that a lot was intentional rhetoric to create awareness…can’t shake my training
)
Forfeiting a “cause” to right the wrongs in CC from that approach, admitting defeat with that approach (which I learned here, but have watched Michael and a few others grow and change over time) I am going to be more civil and expect that others should be as well and that we all follow what has been articulated on here many times, which is a change of direction not only in emphasis but in civility, tone, etc.
I agree with the advice I’ve gotten many times. It’s the right advice. Now, some will not take their own advice and will continue to respond in an unloving unkind manner, and that is expected. Human nature.
And, Leaders lead…and I’m committed to that direction…which I am finally won over by Michael and his change of direction and leadership, especially this past year.
which I am finally won over by Michael and his change of direction and leadership, especially this past year.
Alex, could you expound?
What the heck?
Alex, you will understand if people think you are being disingenuous, a phony and one with ulterior motives, won’t you?
You’re laying on the frosting just a little too thick for even someone like me who has a real sweet tooth.
Nomans, I can and will. Thanks for the openness to ask that question. I have an obligation I have to run out for now, but will answer that question later tonight. I think it’s a good answer that has taken me a long time to accept…thanks to Michael’s sticking with me and his good leadership.
Thank you, Alex.
I think I understand even by your brief explanation.
Wow… Is Alex a big enough threat to anyone here that we need to tear him to shreds? Is it not possible that the Lord is doing a work in him? His apology to Dave R and to others was sincere and well received. Every person here has been forgiven much & if Alex’s motives aren’t pure, God will deal with him.
Like Nomans said, it’s back to lurking & praying.
Covered, yeah, you’re right. Back to minimal participation here by me as well. Alex can spend the next several weeks convincing everyone here just how humble he really is now, thanks to Michael, of course
Talking through this… It seems as if from Alex’s perspective, Michael has demonstrated the “leave the 99 for the one” sort of pastoral care toward him. This is a powerful kind of love, and has carried great cost. To watch this kind of love carry a healing into the recipient is a miracle… Christ in and through us. A warning though. Let us strive to not be the straying one as the burden on the 99 left may be a worthy sacrifice, but a sacrifice nonetheless….
When we were told to count the cost before building, I believe this principal related to living stones as well.
Or, I am totally off base.
Alex is always so funny when he is off his meds.
Furthermore, this kind of love would be particularly powerful to one deprived of it during critical stages of childhood/development. A child should always feel like they are the most important thing to at least one other human being.
There are three constants in life:
Death
Taxes
Alex
BrianD! LOL
I was just posting this little clip.
It’s only 59 seconds long. Give it a view everyone
Substitute “Bob” for “Michael”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pKymngWgJw
Mormonism as a heresy is a no-brainer but Catholicism is teetering on the edge of cliff.
I mean Leo Marvin
BS is as BS does, says, acts, dominates, hijacks, mocks, taunts, abuses…
I’m with Scott. Sorry to say I can’t interact with him more due to the return of TheAbuser
Homosexuality has no place in Christianity it is akin to child abuse when a couple of the “gay” persuasion adopt a child or produce children from withdrawals at a sperm bank. Homosexuality is anti-family and anti-God.
What happened to Eric Griego at Calvary Chapel ABQ? He’s not there any more.
Tolerance has been redefined.
On an unrelated note…
I’m just now starting to formulate my thoughts on being in the wilderness. Of looking atheism and skepticism in the eye and seeing its dogmatism wanting. Of working through my own questions and doubts, while not wanting to shed Christianity altogether. Of wanting to shed myself of American Christianity’s religiosity, in all of its flavors (including the neo-Reformed variety) that aren’t life-giving and don’t nourish the soul. Of looking towards other Christian traditions to help capture that life and nourishment. Of doing so while walking through this time of my life alone, stoically enduring the loneliness, enjoying the opportunity to explore other variants of Christianity, facing some of my own questions about God, His existence and His nature.
And, of seeing that God truly moves in and outside of the traditions we grew up in, and live in.
DOMA is being ignored and is not considered important enough to enforce.
Scott.
LOL
BriD, you are getting deep, my friend. A good thing, I think.
The path of our Christian life does take us all to places we never thought we’d go, doesn’t it.
We look doubt and death and disbelief in the face, and, somehow, without knowing how or why we did it, decide, once again, to stand.
BrianD, please write a long post!
BrianD, may God guide you on your journey! I was there myself and I think I understand.
Puzzletop, hello! Long time no see!
Love @132
Hiya Xenia!
Looks lively here today.
pzz
Yes, I forgot to say hello to Puzzletop! Hello
Nomans,
If your 132 is to be applied to a man who needs to stop acting out, there is a point where he must demonstrate good character, earn his place in a community and secure it by ongoing behavior. When a man demonstrates abusive behavior, no matter how tragic a history the impulses spring from, for the good if the community the man must be held to a standard that does not continue his abusive behavior.
Scott,
Did I lose your email address?
Shoot me a line.
pzz
Puzzletop,
A child growing up with 2 dads or moms is still going to thank God Almighty that she came from a loving home. My lesbian friend’s son and daughter love Jesus, love their mom, and they love their spouses and children. The only challenge is when they are faced with someone who doesn’t have gay or lesbian families in their lives, they must be even more “christlike” at the intolerance
three constants: death, taxes and Alex? . . . hmmm, pondering . . . hmmm . . . i don’t think death is a constant as it only happens (to you) once
Let’s make this clear:
Grendall
Homosexuality is sin.
Tolerance is not an excuse for sin.
Jesus is Lord.
God made Man and Woman to be married. Period.
I believe the Bible. I believe to be “tolerant” of sin is enabling people to continue in their sin and thus grease the wheels to the road to Hell.
Love the sinner hate the sin.
Grendal
Furthermore.
Global Warming is not man made.
pzz
pzz,
I prefer ( |o )====::: or g please.
Next, um, “global warming”???
Who said :: anything :: about that?
Finally, you can state your theology all day long but help me with my real world example of my lesbian friend, who loves Jesus, whose kids love Jesus… I’m to believe that she and her family will go to hell, even though they are professing believers who can tell you their dates of accepting Jesus?
If you are wrong about Jesus, it don’t matter what you are right about. Eternally, the flip can be true. If you are right about Jesus, it doesn’t matter what you are wrong about.
G.
We are all theologians. What we believe is how we live. Those elected are known to God. We only carry the message of the Cross to those that are perishing. Many people I talk to always believe the best of who they think they are but ours is not to judge on their goodness only to tell them their need for a Savior. We can only believe what God has revealed us as truth in his word. Let God be true and every man (or woman) a liar.
God doesn’t change His mind. His character is immutable. What he says about homosexuality will never change. He will judge the person who practices it. Best to tell your friend with true love that there is judgment in their lifestyle. Better are the blows of a friend than kisses of an enemy.
Clearly there is a need for sinners to repent.
Clearly it is in vain to repent and not have a Savior.
My homosexual friends cringe to hear the Gospel and the need to leave a lifestyle that will only make their lives miserable.
As the proverbs say, Can a man press fire against his bosom and not be burned? More personally… Can a lesbian continue to practice her homosexuality and there be no consequence in God’s judgment?
sigh . . .
pzz,
If you maintain the verses apply then so do all the other ones, like shellfish being an abomination as well.
If you maintain that Jesus’ sacrifice applies to all then she is bought by His blood, professes to love Him, serve Him, witness about Him, lives a monogamous life with her partner. Her track record surpasses serial marriage guys like the author of The Late Great Planet Earth.
I agree completely with Reuben, if you’re right about Jesus, what He says, what He exemplified, then the other stuff is unresolved but covered by grace.
G.
What?!!! Universalism is a damnable heresy. No, not everyone will be saved. The blood of Jesus is not for Hitler, Stalin or your choice of rightwingers. Never! No, not everyone will be saved. Narrow is the way. Wide is the path to destruction.
Not eating clams and lobster and chopping down fruit trees was a good idea just as handwashing wasn’t proven scientifically significant until surgeons realized it’s value in the 19th century. Realize the wisdom a full five thousand years after the decrees by Moses.
Comparing Hal Lindsey to Ru Paul is a poor argument for promoting “christian” homosexuality. I prefer to compare Paul the Apostle to the emperor Nero for my comparison against acceptance of homosexuality by the Church.
Grace is not license. We who know our Lord never presume on His Grace lest we tempt Him.
Is this your theology? Like I said before, “We are all theologians.”
pzz,
Who said anything about “universalism”? Reread what I posted.
“If you maintain that Jesus’ sacrifice applies to all then she is bought by His blood”
If Jesus’ sacrifice does not apply to all then none can be saved. If it does, then my friend is one of the “whosoever will”, who states with no uncertainty that He is her Savior.
Do you really want to be the one who decides where she spends eternity or to call her faith a sham?
Guess so
Alex shows up…
Creates strife,
Acts arrogant,
Makes ridiculous comments about Chuck Smith (bitterness discolors everything),
Some engage,
Some stay quite.
At the end of the day PP wreaks of PooPoo.
“The blood of Jesus is not for Hitler, Stalin or your choice of rightwingers.”
My choice of “rightwingers”???
Dude, are you serious?
I cannot care one whit about someone’s professed politics.
I care about how they live out their lives, how they treat others, which is the core of the revelation of ethical and codified monotheism.
I truly believe that the blood of Jesus applies to Hitler, Stalin, and even me and you, but how we live out what awareness of that grace and mercy, and the ultimate choice is between the individual and God. Could we spend eternity with a redeemed Hitler or Stalin? Mercy alone knows the relationship of each individual you cite. It looks hopeless but Who alone but Jesus can ultimately know? I will leave the imponderables up to him.
When did you commit your sins?
After the sacrifice of Jesus for all mankind.
The big, eternal question is simply for each individual, “What is Jesus to you and how do you want to proceed with that profound understanding?”
I leave nothing to chance for anyone whom I can interact, I offer them the grace and love of The Living Jesus, and I let Him in his Power and passion for the other person sort out the details.
And shazam,
One can’t spell…
iObserver,
I think the stink has cleared and there’s a space for free interaction and grace.
pzz,
I know we won’t agree, but I sincerely hope you can be successful in influencing each person in your life for the good news.
Off to dinner with the beloved
G.
You can state your theology all day long but sentimentalism is no substitute for the saving power of Christ. Whosoever does not mean do Whatever.
I judge no man or woman I only repeat what the Bible warns.
Being certain about your feelings is not the rock or the anchor that true faith is built on. Jesus is the rock and anchor not the feelings of being certain unless we find we are certainly wrong what our lives are built on.
pzz
pzz,
I have no sentimentality. I find the bible full of severe contradictions, written in a bronze age of understanding. It is the church that insists that I believe the bible as a unified document. That’s hoestly a stretch for me. Jesus’s story is sufficient for me, and the theology that has come after Him leaves uncertainty about even professing believers as well, so there is truly no assurance than anyone can actually be saved if you string the verses together skillfully. That’s why the whole OSAS debate drags on.
All I can depend on is Jesus, in the 4Gospels, and count on Him to sort out EVERYTHING else.
That’ll have to do for now.
Peace, pzz
-g
Dansk, 5:05, yes it does. Reuben, 5:09, seems like I have an outline for it. Xenia, 5:10, thank you!
Puzz, hello!
This is part 2
http://www.patheos.com/Progressive-Christian/Falling-from-Faith-Frederick-Schmidt-05-29-2012
Hi Brian
G.
You know, Thomas Jefferson had a Bible just like yours.
pzz
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/31/reading-suggestions-for-religious-fiction/?partner=rss&emc=rss
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/05/31/thirty-three-things-v-10/
http://twocleareyes.blogspot.com/2012/05/hardcore-christians.html
“puzzletop says:
May 31, 2012 at 8:58 PM
G.
You know, Thomas Jefferson had a Bible just like yours.”
And that’s a problem because???
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/scienceonreligion/2012/05/analytical-thinking-vs-religion/
Because its not a bible just like his.
http://www.nakedpastor.com/2012/05/24/structure-the-sojourn/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/05/would-paul-have-made-a-good-evangelical/
I see things are as they have been.
http://youtu.be/I7nehgKtJqg
First and foremost I understand the apologetic value of that, which justifies this and anything else people do. I get that I really do, pragmatism is always correct. I also get that. But little kids dont get what they are singing for the most part, especially at this age. I found this troubling, most likely this is because of some deep seeded evil rotting away my soul, I get that as well, but this video and others like it really bother me. Most likely it should not but it does.
Green Lantern is officially out of the closet!
http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20120601_ap_greenlanternrelaunchedasbravemightyandgay.html?cmpid=138887484
Scott,
I always knew he was light in the loafers.
#182 link: “… It’s just that Paul’s high view and an Evangelical high view are clearly not the same. I’m just glad Evangelicals weren’t around at the time to try to stifle Paul, to keep him from landing his gig as apostle to the Gentiles. We would have missed out on a lot.”
the writer is either eaten up with self importance or he’s ignorant . . .
as i have followed this PhxP site for a few years now, gaining insights into and affection for everyone who posts here, i have become aware of the terrible consequences of the sheep being drawn to or herded to preachers on ego trips – men who get by on street smarts, personality and fast talk . . . Evangelical? Some of our finest men of God, humble learners all, in these last few centuries are Evangelicals.
Maybe it’s time to drop the labels . . . maybe it’s time to come up with a list of criterium for the honored title of Pastor and Teacher of The One True Faith? no other labels and no denominational distinctions . . . i know it can’t happen, but i’m thinking about my own list today . . .
Feelin’ the love and civility
Normans: I’ve watched Michael grow a lot over the last several years. His example has not been lost on me. There’s much I could parse and explain in full detail, but it wouldn’t make any sense to most.
Let me just say that the man who was once ready to fight me for saying I could rip Calvinism to shreds…the man who would’ve punched SH in the nose…has grown tremendously.
We aren’t saved by “correct doctrine”. We won’t be judged by our “correct doctrine”. We reap what we sow for our bad actions (child abuse, corruption, etc) eventually. How we treat others is how we’ll most likely be judged. We can affect more positive change and have better influence by modeling Law of Love and civility than we can by going Luther and going Jesus vs. the Pharisees and Paul vs. the Judaizers. We should assume the best of other believers, even if they have hurt us in some manner (which doesn’t mean we don’t report clear-cut abuses). Relationship is a much stronger more effective more positive Leadership Model than Dictatorship, Judgeship or crusading.
Michael has taught me a lot…and I’m buying what he’s selling…
And, if “Relationship” is a much more effective way to influence people and share Christ…vs. the other models…
…do you think it’s a good idea to tell Mormons they are a “Cult!” and cast them in hell before you even have a cup of decaf coffee with them? Think about that for a bit…
The irony in all of this is…my public style etc on blogs and the image I put out there is vastly different from how I treat my wife and kids. I influence them through Relationship, Servant of All and love and civility and patient encouragement rather than Dictatorial edicts, Judging and strict Law.
So, like some in Christian-land, my public rhetoric doesn’t match my private actions (but in a good way) I’m a total hypocrite at home! I’m much too gracious and loving
My #129…
I think I might be a prophet! LOL
Scott, I’m not humble, I’ll be the first to proclaim that I’m much smarter than most people
Reuben said, “If you are wrong about Jesus, it don’t matter what you are right about. Eternally, the flip can be true. If you are right about Jesus, it doesn’t matter what you are wrong about.”
Amen. That’s where I’m at (in general)…and of course there is much parsing as to the ‘right’ Jesus, etc.
Puzz, good to see you on here (and not just FB)
Agreed, homosexuality is sin. Being wired or predisposed to that sin, even falling into that sin often doesn’t preclude one from being saved…only the rejection of Christ.
G, I must’ve wounded you badly even though we’ve never met. I am sorry my past approach has affected you so much. Probably why Michael has warned against that type of style and tone.
“do you think it’s a good idea to tell Mormons they are a “Cult!” and cast them in hell before you even have a cup of decaf coffee with them? Think about that for a bit…”
Alex, I would never do that when interacting with a Mormon one on one. Typically I’ve met them at my front door and the conversation flows based on what they say which leads me to ask questions. When it has become clear they don’t believe what I share and they’re ready to leave I have closed with something close to the following.
“If you’re right and I’m wrong I have nothing to lose but if I’m right and you’re wrong you have everything to lose for eternity with no second chance.” I say that praying the gravity of the comment might by God’s grace somehow cause them to hopefully consider the things I’ve said.
E, it’s not the “front door” in-the-field missionary meetings I’m talking about. The Mormons are in missionary mode then.
I’m talking about having real relationships….not debate sessions at your door.
it would be wrong to say that i am *studying* the brain, but i am reading a recognized authority on the subject right now (slowly and painfully reading – too many big, unfamiliar words)
the result is that i am finding it much easier to see the same sex attraction and it’s acting out as sin . . . i admit doing so with only fragile and rudimentary grasping of the research, on my part . . . that said, in a nutshell what our brain processes (whether willingly or unwillingly) over time has a dominating influence on our actions – how we think . . . and some can be buried very deep, can become what we’d like to call our “natural bent” . . . it truly is good to look at someone plagued with a besetting sin and say, “that is me” . . . and therefore, IMHO, it isn’t wrong of us as Christians to call for repentance (which isn’t quite the same thing as reformation, is it?) – grace, mercy AND TRUTH
Alex, I sure hope that you have made positive decisions that are going to influence how you handle yourself on this blog. Part of this is the vital understanding you will need to realize you have burned bridges with many and there is good reason NOT to trust you. You are what I might describe as an unsafe person and the only way you will ever earn any amount of good will back is through time.
I was in your boat several years ago when I alienated people here through my actions. I had to earn trust and respect back from people over time. From what I have seen the fashion in which you are posting now is not going to win people over. It’s not enough to say I’m sorry you’re going to have to prove it. And that takes time.
If you have changed (and I hope you have) I would hope to see that played out in how you interact when you visit CC blogs as well as how you conduct yourself on your blog.
If change is real for you you should fully understand the reluctance of many to embrace the new you. I think you have the capacity to offer a lot and I hope to see that demonstrated as we move forward.
re #197, Alex, I would do my best to treat every Mormon or JW for that matter with the utmost respect if I knew them personally. I seek to do the same for any person I know who is without Christ, even if they express hatred and disdain for the beliefs I hold. I agree with your premise though… we must be light to them while maintaining our convictions.
Erunner, what you’ve described is how the Church can be missionaries at our front doors – oh how we need to be grounded and gracious – maybe drop the word ‘cult’ from our vocabulary and replace it with the word ‘wrong.’ dunno
G, #201 – maybe that’s what this site is for in God’s plan . . . working thru the hard ones? dunno . . . the tough push back that goes on here may be a necessary?
E, I haven’t “changed”…my approach has. We’re all “unsafe people” whether one admits it or not. I’m just a little more willing to take risks and expose the depths and the range that we as humans are…as I am a student of the human condition and a fellow sinner/human. We can choose how we engage and interact and we can choose to be gracious even when we disagree or have a negative opinion of someone b/c of their past behavior. If “relationship” and love and civility is the right response, it doesn’t mean that we humans have “changed”…meaning that we don’t sin and don’t have strong disagreement or think negatively of someone else…it means we’ve chosen to address that person and that situation in a positive manner rather than what is perceived as a negative manner.
Now, clearly Jesus exampled both approaches. Kind to some, harsh to others (the Pharisees)…ditto Paul with the Judaizers. However, the Law of Love would dictate that we choose to example the loving side of Jesus when we address others and not the Pharisee-rebuking Jesus that yelled and screamed and called names.
Internally, I’m the same guy I was before. I haven’t been re-saved. I have bought into Michael’s (and Centy’s) philosophy that you can make a bigger and better dent through relationship and being more loving and more civil.
self justification wouldn’t help Bob’s cause
just silence and new behavior without a whole lot of words about himself
immediate fail
will start the count fresh another day
G, I think your perception of me is clouded by your bitterness and unforgiveness and your analogy comparing me to a man who broke the law of the land and physically abused children for many years (and is accused by his son of worse) is not appropriate and hurtful. But, I will not resort to calling you names or returning your unloving approach in kind.
If Bob confessed the child abuse and sought reconciliation the relationship would be healed. He won’t which is why we’re where we are.
I have fully copped to my style and tone and volume of posts being “wrong” in the context that it has negatively affected several on this blog (while many others have expressed a different opinion and see it as not negative, just part of what happens on blogs). I, on the other hand, accept Michael’s correction (even though others have encouraged me that I wasn’t doing anything wrong, just being forceful and persistent in executing my agenda to try and make a dent in the abuses in CC and call attention to them in the hopes of curtailing further abuses and bringing much needed accountability etc). My style, however, often spilled over into regular debate interaction with “some” of the Group on here and my methods (though they were mirrored by others and pretty much on par with how others interacted with me) did have a net negative impact and wasn’t a wise approach.
G, unfortunately, you have assumed a role in the Group of being the judge of other’s actions and motives and there is no convincing you and I won’t extend that power to you. You do have a problem as well my friend, even if you don’t accept that criticism.
Whether in pulpit or pew, few Christians practice true repentance. Maybe because it is easy to rest in the doctrine we are all sinners and salvation is a gift of grace no matter our works.
The 12-step groups understand true repentance. Maybe because they know all are NOT drunks or addicts and that to go out and use again is likely a jail or death sentence.
So they are serious about it. Here’s some of what they say, and of course all these principles come first from the Scriptures and are rooted in our Christian faith.
A) Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
(We took stock honestly. First, we searched out the flaws in our make-up which caused our failure. Being convinced that self, manifested in various ways, was what had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations.)
B) Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
(The best reason first: If we skip this vital step, we may not overcome…Trying to avoid this humbling experience, (some) have turned to easier methods….(then) they wondered why they fell. We think the reason is that they never completed their housecleaning. They took inventory all right, but hung on to some of the worst items in stock. They only thought they had lost their egoism and fear; they only thought they had humbled themselves. But they had not learned enough of humility, fearlessness and honesty.)
C) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character and asked Him to do so.
(We have emphasized willingness as being indispensable. Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? Can He now take them all, everyone? If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.)
D) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. (and) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
‘Whether in pulpit or pew, few Christians practice true repentance.’
Truly? How on earth could you know that?
Are you privy to millions of Christians and what they do?
No. I speak for myself, always have, always will.
Show your “change” by no more self justification, a minimum of words and a maximum of actions.
There is no “try”, only “do”.
Alex, this is not different. This is equally bizarre. I’ve seen you on at least 4 occasions tell everyone here off, and swear you were leaving, that your wife didn’t like you being here, etc…
And every time, within two weeks, you are back in full, dominant force. Are you addicted to this place? Is it healthy for you to interact here?
No Lutheran, I’m not privy to millions of Christians. Just the ones I’ve encountered over 20 years that are sorry that the wife kicked them out of the house, or the boss fired them, or the cops busted them – and not sorry first and foremost for sinning against God.
So if the wife will let them back in (hey pastor, maybe you can talk to her and say we met), or the boss will reconsider (hey pastor, maybe you can talk to my boss) or the court will dismiss the charges (hey pastor, would you mind writing me a letter of reference) – then they will say anything.
And beyond my anecdotal evidence from experience, we have the witness of so many pastors documented at websites like this one. Apparently able to say “I’m sorry” but not recognize there is a season to allow fruit to grow that shows repentance (as they set up their new church across the street)
‘Whether in pulpit or pew, few Christians practice true repentance.’
I would venture to say that not a single Christian practices true repentance. We are incapable of repenting on our own.
Jeremiah 31:18 – “I have heard Ephraim grieving, ‘You have disciplined me, and I was disciplined, like an untrained calf; bring me back that I may be restored, for you are the LORD my God.”
God puts in us the repentance – we cannot on our own
it may be a long, long road from confession to freedom . . . i think it depends on so many factors both natural and supernatural . . . and the Church has to use common sense and care with one who says that they are sorry, who confesses they are a sinner . . . you all are saying much more in agreement than you realize – IMV – if you saw what i see as i read your posts . . . .
Yoda doctrine, nice
MLD, I tend to agree with that position.
Josh, God bless you bro. “That” was a bizarre comment and pretty judgmental IMO as many have done the same thing many times over on here. If I had a dime for every time someone has sworn of the PhxP and come back, I’d be rich
I did need to change my approach, however, and be more civil. The “dominant” comment…how do you mean? What does “not dominant” look like in your view? What is that I am doing today that is offending you?
Not offensive to me. Center of attention, again? Yep.
I’m fine with making this judgment. This is the weirdest communication I know of. It is strange to see such extremes, and for both of them to be so over-the-top and overbearing.
Go away
begone
create negative space and avoid filling it
Josh, I expressed my opinions about Mormonism and announced a new tone of civility. How you all respond to it and focus on me is your responsibility not mine.
replace your presence by fresh air and absenteeism
Alex @103 addressing Michael, “Just read the “end” post. Got caught up in the ongoing dialogue. I’ll cross Mormon discussions off the official approved list.”
(Of course, the reason there was a Mormon discussion is Alex, despite having two different forums to discuss Chuck’s Mormon phone call decided to post it here and monopolize the thread. And the snarky ‘official approved list’ speaks for itself – and not well)
And yet – today dawns, and I read “…do you think it’s a good idea to tell Mormons they are a “Cult!” and cast them in hell before you even have a cup of decaf coffee with them? Think about that for a bit…”
So apparently Alex is going to listen to Michael, except when he chooses not to listen to Michael – which will probably be those times when there is an added benefit of misrepresenting the views of this community while also telling the rest of the community how wrong they are.
Alex, I have specifically addressed to you your sins against me, and you have never yet admitted to them. Instead you have countered with self-justification or denial. Even in the glut thread only 2 days ago you jumped in and began to misrepresent me to another, and when I called you on it, I got a “You are wrong” in reply. Some general apologizing for “hurting me” is ridiculous – you didn’t “hurt” me.
You slandered me.
You bore a false witness against me.
You broke confidence and made private matters public.
You engaged in conversation for an ulterior motive of collecting quotes for a lawsuit.
You engaged in guilt by association.
You hosted a website that encouraged lies and slander, even against those you said were friends. (Here’s where you could learn from Michael’s example)
You risked hurting someone close to me.
Searching and fearless moral inventory. That’s the path to repentance.
Otherwise, you simply look like the equivalent of a baseball player changing his swing and stance at the plate to try to be “more effective”
Do you see your sins against others in this community, or are you just changing “style” Do you see that you were wrong in how you acted?
God hates the sin and loves the sinner. God doesn’t just hate the style of sin.
(And Alex, despite it all, I continue to pray for you and your family. As long as you are asking Michael, ask him what he thinks of my dealings with you – and what motivated me)
But, hey, the haters will hate. Knock yourselves out. I appreciate many of you on the PhxP, even if we disagree at times…and I agree with much of what Michael is exampling and promoting. Gonna go get some work done and then spend time with my kiddos tonight.
AV, just saw your comment. I disagree with a chunk of what you stated. It is inaccurate. I did much of what Michael did in the past in trying to report on abuses and the info I have is not slander, it is the 1st person testimony of several (more than 2) CC insiders. They are either lying or telling the truth. I am sorry, however, for how I personally dealt with you and your situation. I should have been more gracious and I should not have done some of the things you listed. I’ve apologized for it already, I apologize again. I would suggest that you keep bringing it up again and again b/c you were personally affected by my actions and it will take you awhile to “get over it” and “move on” and forgive etc. Believe me, I know.
AV, I do believe you that you had a personal concern for me and my family and prayed and hoped for a good outcome. My major disagreement with you was being anonymous and not stepping up in a crusading type manner to right the wrongs in your own Movement. But, I’ve changed my stance on that one.
Oh, my. Is my lengthy sojourn in the wilderness due to my trying to get it right outnumbering my actual succeeding in doing it right? Is progress not perfection invalid until I’ve demonstrated a divinely designated number of successes in avoiding the character defects that continually beset me? How can I know when I’ve made it? Keep coming back to read #1 because hoping I can learn more about worshipping in spirit & truth #2 I’ve come to love the folks I’ve met here. Even when their theology, bantering, fussing and fuming drives me bonkers.
I have had the tendency to share less here of my struggles, questions, etc because of my fear of offending, stumbling, angering others. Best to be suspected of heresy than open my mouth and remove all doubt
Also, AV, I know about true repentance of stuff that is clear-cut sin and not perception or blog style or harsh words etc. Michael knows those details as well.
AV, common buddy, I just read your “snarky” accusation. Everyone on here is snarky often, but I will be sensitive to tone that down as well as it seems to offend you. Can I make a request? Can others please not be so negative and snarky towards me? Can you assume the best of me and be more gracious and kind in your responses?
Well, I’ve had all of Mr. Narcissist I can stand. When he’s gone, I’ll come back.
This is unbearable.
I find it unbelievable when people say they only want to love Jesus – or the law of love – or relationships and then talk down about theology and doctrine.
But you know what? Just figuring out how to love Jesus, love your neighbor and have proper relationships ALL involve doctrine and theology.
If I say, “tell me about this Jesus you love.” I dare you to do it without using theology. If I ask you “why do you love others?” I dare you to do it with out running first to theology.
I think people are pompous when they try to make like they are “non theological” or “doctrinally neutral”
Can’t or won’t anyone boot this self indulgent clown out of here?
For the sake of the community, I’m putting Alex into moderation, and closing comments on this particular thread.
Here’s the deal. Not ancient history – but the last 48 hours. Otherwise known as “The New Style” (snark very much intended)
I’m discussing an issue with MLD and Chile, and Alex jumps into the conversation in 3 posts, each of which involve me and abuses within Calvary Chapel.
I don’t bite at the bait. I ignore him. All 3 posts.
Alex posts a link to his own writings about Chuck Smith and Mormons here in linkathon. They weren’t getting much commentary at the time on his two websites, so they got tossed here. Once more, not only I but the entire community ignore him.
8 hours pass, and so Alex again starts posting about Mormons. Citing stuff off their website, and including in most posts a dig at Chuck Smith. Twelve posts in total.
NOW I jump in. After 15 posts.
So yeah, it does take two to argue. Yeah, we could all just “ignore” Alex when he seeks attention. But it is clear he is willing to call you out by name in misrepresentation, selectively post propoganda from a cult site, and say outrageous things like “Chuck Smith believes Mormons are Christians” UNTIL WE GIVE HIM THE ATTENTION HE SEEKS.
Today’s a new day. And 11 new posts from Alex arrive before I write something. (I wasn’t going to leave G-man hanging alone)
And of course, every critical comment by me, or someone like G-man will prompt 3-4 new comments from Alex, as he fires off the first thing that comes into his mind, then the next thing that comes into his mind, and so forth. And another thread is destroyed.
To repeat – this is all within the last 48 hours. This is the “new Alex”
So like Xenia, I find little in the way of options. I guess 15 posts of misrepresentation is my breaking point.