May 092012
- “Teresa MacBain has a secret, one she’s terrified to reveal. “I’m currently an active pastor and I’m also an atheist,” she says.“
- The transcript of MacBain’s subsequent appearance on NPR’s Talk of the Nation program.
- A couple of entries from some blog friends: Mike DeLong on Albert Mohler, and Sarah on joy in the moment.
- “Claire Lomas of the U.K. was paralyzed from the chest down in a horse-riding accident five years ago. Yet today, she accomplished something difficult for anyone: she finished the London Marathon.“
- “So my question for those evangelicals leading the charge in the culture wars is this: Is it worth it? ”
- “On Tuesday night, four eminences in sports and culture met at NYU’s Skirball Center to debate the question: Should college football be banned? According to the crowd of New Yorkers at the final Slate/Intelligence Squared live debate of the spring season, the answer is definitively: yes.“
- “If we can’t respect those people who are still standing after 50 years or more, especially within the Church, what hope do we have to ever move anything—including the Church—forward?“
- “We shouldn’t be surprised (or worried) that in his overtures to us God uses every kind of language available”
- “But somehow in the past four years, I lost my home church.“
- “Myers contends that Christians are spending an inordinate amount of attention on the failings and dangers of the surrounding “culture” when what we should be truly worried about is the culture in the church.“
- “For those of you following the conversation about Andy Stanley’s controversial message, a few remarks by way of update“
- “When you love a person during your lifetime who battles with homosexual desires, or pedophilia desires, or adulterous desires, or other sexually deviant desires (and that would include all of us in one form or another), you love them by never refusing to tell them the truth and by always pointing them to God’s grace in the person and work of Christ. “
- Roger Olson compares the emerging church and the Jesus people movement.
- “I will begin by summarizing my view of the nature of God’s activity in creation. I think that God created all living organisms, including humans, through the evolutionary process.“; “I believe that the natural activity of God is not less divine than the supernatural activity of God, something borne out by the Scriptures themselves.“
- “I’m concerned that I hear in Chan’s message the seeds of a movement away from accountability in whatever form.“
- “I’ve been reading a lot on Christian blogs about the subject of Genesis and evolution. … There are two things that make me tired about this debate.“
- “Here are five reasons school debt is threatening the future of the church.“
- Matt Dabbs reviews Jonathan Merritt’s book A Faith of Our Own, and interviews the author.
- “In an age when science claims to be all-encompassing and skepticism seems corrosive to faith, Gardner was a breath of fresh air. “
- An atheist writes about her Christian parents’ intervention.
- “I do wonder about two things. First, can a church larger than a few hundred people really function as a New Testament ecclesia? … Second, do contemporary megachurches tend to draw huge crowds by making Christianity feel like consumerism?“
- “Both Alvin McEwen and Jan Edmiston wonder if the Rev. Billy Graham is being exploited and manipulated.“
- “Fewer slurs against Christianity are more common today than the accusation that Christians are anti-science. ” (HT)
- “So-called “scientific creationists” like Ham claim that they are doing “biblical science,” but what they are doing has just as little to do with the actual Bible as it has to do with actual science.“
- “Connor Wood has an interesting essay on his belief in why some religious people reject evolutionary theory. It’s an interesting take, and I think there’s some truth to it. ” (HT)
215 Responses to “Linkathon 5/9”
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#12 caught my attention and it is one i am going to reread and ponder – we’ve got some growing to do, not rationalize, not compromise, but growth and maturity are due on the subject . . . Burleson may have gotten carried away, but something tells me to listen to him and think . . .
in light of a question Michael asked on another thread – one that i am more and more convinced that the Redeemed of today are going to have to understand and stand strong in grace and Truth
hate to post first, but it’s been a long day and my short term memory is shot – we’ve got to hold our rants in check and get a whole lot smarter about the s*xual climate we live in . . .
The church down the street from me has one of those flashy signs. Noticed when I drove by the other day that they ate offering a summer science camp. Thought it was a great idea.
they ate the offering
sorry, it’s time for me to sign off before i deteriorate any further
God keep all close and comforted
Auto correct. My phone does not recognize the word are.
The point I was trying to make was that they were doing something good.
Never mind…,
The entire same sex unions uproar often makes me scratch my head. I was always ashamed as a christian that I was celibate and not out messing around like a real man would. Never really struggled with it before being a Christian. In my experience the people I knew who screamed the loudest were also struggling with the same issue. Ken Ham has made a nice living at what he does, so I cant and will never fault him that. I would not want a doctor to treat me with Mr. Ham’s same presuppositions though.
The atheist minister is really interesting, I knew some who were agnostic but they had so much skin in the game they could not bow out. I know I tried really hard to be an atheist, I really did, but failed. (note I did not add the could not even do that right phrase) trying to move past the passive aggressive shtick. It really looks bad for our program this year, I hope it makes it but maybe it wont. Its hard to look at twenty two years and call it a wash, which it is and was, but that is another post. Not a wash in that we helped people but I wanted it to be a legacy, in that sense its a total wash.
I watch ewtn alot and work right next to a Carmelite monetary, it is like walking into another world, I will admit I wish I could hide there. I think I want to hide alot, afraid of pain or even worse causing someone else pain.
I went down and got a substitution credential so I could work in other schools if needed. I always try to think ahead. So I have been thinking what could I do besides this, I really do not know? I have two masters degrees, work well with many programming languages and IDE and SDK though I dont have the coding down like those powerhouses. I understand OOP and windows os X and Linux fairly well. But in this economy I am sort of to educated in some areas and not confident enough to really go for it. I guess many others know the feeling.
Im not a really smart person but I would work my heart out for an employer, that is not real big these days. Loyalty is looked down on from what I have heard, next to being a teacher it is bottom of the list. We live in a very strange world.
I wanted to add my comments on all the programs I have seen on tv while scanning the channels. I will add my positive comments below.
That did not take to long.
Brian! Thanks for the laugh!!!
Hey, I’ve been praying for you my friend. I know several others here have too. You are loved and appreciated.
From the atheist article:
“My name is Teresa,” she begins. “I’m a pastor currently serving a Methodist church — at least up to this point” — the audience laughs — “and I am an atheist.”
Hundreds of people jump to their feet. They hoot and clap for more than a minute. MacBain then apologizes to them for being, as she put it, “a hater.”
“I was the one on the right track, and you were the ones that were going to burn in hell,” she says. “And I’m happy to say as I stand before you right now, I’m going to burn with you.”
This struck me as so tragic. Really made me shudder. How sad that this woman would turn from God and with such a mocking attitude. How sad that she implies that Christians hate atheists. I certainly don’t hate unbelievers. My heart aches for them, prays for them, loves them and hopes for their best. May God open their eyes…may God open Theresa’s eyes to His greatness and grace.
I think #5 deserves much consideration.
As I read earlier today, we would have much greater moral authority if we agonized over our sins the way we expect homosexuals to agonize over theirs.
We don’t…
michael,
“As I read earlier today, we would have much greater moral authority if we agonized over our sins the way we expect homosexuals to agonize over theirs. We don’t…”
I agree with you. (again, what a shocker I know) To a large extent, the church has forgotten what it means to agonize over and subsequently repent, turn away from, and not continue in our own sins.
I know for myself, I can only do so as I cooperate with the promptings of the Holy Spirit as He convicts (not condemns) and I obey.
Do you read Oswald Chambers “My Utmost for His Highest”? Great one for today @ http://utmost.org/classic/today/ that kind of goes with what I’m saying.
Enjoy
I have to admit that I have been surprised on FB to see how many of my Christian friends have chimed in with support for gay marriage.
I agree with the sentiment here that we need to proceed with compassion and grace and not holding unbelievers to a standard we are called to obey. There are many areas where we accept that unbelievers live differently and we cannot force them to live as believers.
I am in listening mode at the moment and trying just to hear. I have had several evangelical believers state great “amen”s to Obama’s statement…declaring that we are finally moving toward a country of freedom and away from discrimination.
My struggle is more within the bounds of my faith and understanding that homosexuality is a sin. I am comfortable talking with unbelievers and speaking with grace and compassion, but the debate within the body will be the great challenge. Thinking this through especially in regards to educating the boys and the awareness that homosexuality is so much more accepted than when I was a child…thinking of tv, etc.
Read Ed Stetzer this morning about this this morning and has me thinking even more…he considers it a done discussion within the evangelical community and I’m not so sure.
sarah,
thanks for linking the ed stetzer article.
Sarah,
Well said.
I was just talking to Centorian on the phone and noting that this isn’t a theoretical issue when discussing it with your children…
I’m terribly conflicted on the gay marriage thing right now. So much so, that I couldn’t possibly make a definitive statement.
It IS a sin. No question in my book. However, I’m not sure why gays shouldn’t have the right to commit that sin if they want to. It’s bad, and they shouldn’t, but I’m not sure the government should be deciding that for them.
Then you could say, what about rapists? Should they be free to commit their sin? Obviously, no. And the answer would be that homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone else. I disagree with that. It hurts a lot of people. Clearly, not even on the same level as rape, but there is still hurt.
Have no clue where God is leading me on this one.
mic…you’re welcome.
Michael…The comparison between the end of slavery and the end of homosexual marriage being taboo keeps coming to the forefront. I’m not sure that is a fair comparison, but not the main focus of my thoughts today…
I was thinking if I agreed with slavery back in those days, would I be able to do so with compassion and grace…and treat those who disagreed with me with compassion and grace. Just thinking through these principles…and in how we raise the kids.
If I constantly talk in a derogatory way about “fags” or mock homosexuals (which extended family members have been known to do), then I am instilling in my children an arrogance and discrimination.
If I am able to somehow convey that we disagree with this lifestyle, with this practice, because we believe God has said that it is wrong…and yet we also see these people as valuable and worthwhile and even to be respected in some areas of their life…then maybe we can instill that that there is disagreement and we hope for and pray for these people because we truly believe they were created to be in a relationship with God.
Of course, the snag and the stumbling and the tension comes when those who claim God also walk in homosexuality….and then I’m just not sure all of how we make that distinction for the boys. To say simply that we are fallible humans doing our best to understand and follow God…and that sometimes we fall out on different places in some issues….maybe it is as simple as that for this homemaker.
For those of you who are pastors….I pray for great wisdom matched with great compassion.
Josh…I am right with you in the tension. People I care greatly about and respect deeply are on opposite sides of this issue….as well as other issues. As I said above, I’m trying to just listen right now…although I’m talking a lot here
I have had several evangelical believers state great “amen”s to Obama’s statement
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I read Obama’s statement and in it he said the decision should be left up to the states. Which is exactly what VP Dick Cheney said many years ago. (Cheney’s daughter is a lesbian)
Somehow I think the same ones praising Obama today weren’t praising Cheney then
josh,
its not a matter of the government banning them from practicing the sin of homosexuality. It’s that a majority of the people who voted in NC (along with 29 other states per the ed stetzer article which itself is a majority of the states) does not want to afford the Title or Status of ‘marriage’ to homosexual couples.
Homosexuality hasn’t been a ‘crime’ in our society since as long as I’ve been around (46yrs in June). And I don’t expect anyone, even christians, to push for that to be reestablished. It just wouldn’t happen in our ‘enlightened’ age.
MiC – I live in NC, and gay marriage has been illegal since 1997. I, and no one else, has any clue why we passed this amendment yesterday. We banned an act that was already banned.
That being said, again, I have no clue where to stand on gay marriage, so if I continued to talk about it, it would seem as if I were making statements. In truth, there are nothing but questions going through my head.
I have a very serious question/comment on this issue. I would like your opinion.
Today, the homosexual community is lumped in with the bisexual and transgender community as one ‘entity’ in discussion. The LGBT community, as it were. The same anti-discrimination laws and such applied to all 3 groups. (Counting lesbian and gay as one).
My question is about a bisexual. A bisexual can certainly fall in love with someone of either gender, and make a commitment to one sole partner from each gender.
So using the legal arguments seen today for homosexuals, what legitimate argument could be made against a polyamorous marriage. Not polygamy. One marriage between three people in love with each other.
I don’t use slippery slope tactics to scare people into agreeing with me. But I really do not see how in several years this too would not be reality (There already is lobbying on this score being done). If the definition of one man and one woman is arbitrary from the gender aspect, why can’t it be arbitrary from the number aspect?
My bottom line question then is: Why should a bisexual be denied the right to marry the one he/she loves – if he/she loves two people of different sexes and being a bisexual is considered protected by the law akin to the homosexual?
as i see it,
the issue at hand is that if homosexual community succeeds in establishing Same Sex Marriage as legitimate as heterosexual marriage, then all those who oppose will be guilty of hate speech and illegal discrimination.
‘they’ will have forced ‘us’ to either agree or be silent, or face legal and criminal penalties for expressing and making daily decisions informed and required by our faith.
the homosexual community doesn’t want equality, they want compliance and agreement especially from those who disagree and do so because of what God says about their sin.
By the way, did anyone see Loretta Sanchez today quoting the stoning of homosexuals from Leviticus in a Congressional hearing discussing whether a military chaplain should be allowed a religious conscience objection to marrying two homosexuals.
When replied by another congressman “That is the Old Testament” she rather hysterically said twice “It’s the Bible!” It’s the Bible!
Then the hearing room laughed….
I never understood why transgender was lumped in with that group either. Seems to be completely different categories.
What the state does is not a religious issue. The state can do what it wants. We as citizens can vote yea or nay – but we get only one vote.
My concern is that MY church does not give in to such nonsense. In a church marriage is different than what it means in the state – and they cannot force it on anyone. It would be like saying you have to commune non members as part of an equal access policy.
I’m off to the dentist for more fun in my day.
AV
the polygamy question is a good one, but probably one best left for when they actually try to legalize and legitimize polygamy (which probably isn’t going to gain any political ground anytime soon).
Bi-sexual is not really an identity. It’s a person who can’t or won’t make up his/her mind. Still involves plain ole’ homosexual gratification of what God designed to be expressed heterosexually. No confusion in God’s mind at all.
AV – It doesn’t even have to involve bisexuals. I can’t imagine legally – non-religious arguments for banning polygamy. If marriage is not just for one man and one woman, then why does it matter? Good point.
josh,
transgender is not a catagory either. it’s a person who has decided to ‘surgically alter’ himself to suit his/her own sin of hoimosexuality.
what it must take to ‘mutilate’ yourself to erase the person God created you to be… what a concept, but the heart of man is exceedingly sinful (jeremiah 17:9)
“Bi-sexual is not really an identity. It’s a person who can’t or won’t make up his/her mind.”
Respectfully, that is quite an inaccurate statement when discussing the issue, MIC, it’s about attraction, not mere acting out. It is indeed about identity for anyone who identifies others
MiC – Read more carefully please. First, I specifically did NOT say ‘polygamy’ – and went to great length to explain my concern.
2nd – Bisexual is a legally protected identity that is lumped with homosexuality in our laws today in every issue I can think of, with the exception of the marriage discussion. Thus, in the eyes of the law (which is what we are talking about) one can be treated by the law as a bisexual – if one claims to be a bisexual.
I read a story about a single man (either divorced or widowed, don’t recall) who had no desire of getting married. However, he had an adult daughter who was very sick with no health insurance.
He had great benefits, but his policy would not cover the adult daughter.
Of course, it would cover his wife. He wanted to marry his daughter, not for any perverse reasons but simply 100% financial and economic. Frankly, I totally sympathized with the guy.
I mention this for two reasons. One is that a large portion of the homosexual marriage argument is about just those things – the legal benefits and rights that a spouse has. So why not allow this man to marry his daughter for the same reasons?
Two, it shows how convulted things have become between government and marriage in a host of other arenas. Health insurance, inheritance, taxes, hospital visits etc.
What a mess.
What if Christians chose a different term? What if we called it Holy Matrimony, and allowed anyone to get married, but we were engaging in Holy Matrimony?
How long before everyone else would be demanding Holy Matrimony as well?
AV
please accept my apologies if I have misunderstood you. it is not my intent to miscommunicate or twist what you have said. if i have done that, i’m sorry. i know how i would feel if someone did the same to me.
a polyamorous marriage though sounds a lot like either a polygamous marriage or at least a marriage with a homosexual relationship on the side. the way i considered what you said was the first, where all three were ‘married together’ and i thought you were asking how society could not condone that if it condones a ‘legally protected’ catagory of bisexual. am I framing your question correctly or am I still missing you?
By the way, my solution is simple and was discussed by C.S. Lewis way back in Mere Christianity. I agree with Lewis. He was only writing because of divorce issues as I recall, but it sure applies all the more today.
The state establishes a domestic partner law of their choosing. Any religious marriage is included as eligible, as is anything else the state desires.
However, the church does not just take back marriage, it takes back divorce too. The same pastor who married you would have to divorce you if still living, otherwise the new pastor of the same denomination/church would have to agree.
If you aren’t serious, as a Christian, to the vow before God of ‘forsaking all others until death do you part’ then you better just stick to the state version. But don’t mock God with a church wedding and the vows, then run to the state with your no-fault, irreconcilable differences justification for your divorce.
AV
“I mention this for two reasons. One is that a large portion of the homosexual marriage argument is about just those things – the legal benefits and rights that a spouse has. So why not allow this man to marry his daughter for the same reasons?”
if it were ‘really’ about ‘spousal benefits’ for the majority of same sex couples, then as a community they would have accepted what was clearly and repeatedly offered to them in Civil Same Sex Unions years ago. it offered all the benefits and priviledges, but held off on the term ‘marriage’ as the definition.
time and time again.. state after state where it was offered they refused anything less than the full term and status of Marriage. Red Herring is as Red Herring does to parlay in Forrest Gump venacular.
MiC – From one of the many sites out there (I won’t provide a link)
Polyamory means different things to different people but it generally involves honest, responsible non-monogamous relationships. This could take the form of an “open” relationship, or a group of three or more adults who are “monogamous” within their group (sometimes called polyfidelity).
Some poly people…can’t marry…because it’s not legal to marry more than one partner at the same time.
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So to repeat MiC – the idea is ONE marriage consisting of more than 2 people. Not multiple marriages.
(Don’t worry about the earlier misunderstanding)
and i refuse to believe that the church should be seen as the aggressor here. we aren’t trying to change the definition of lawful and recognized marriage and flip flop the very foundations of society on it’s ear just to force others to accept their sin and depravity of heart.
I just read # 10… and Chaplain Mike is articulating what I’m thinking and not having the correct words to describe.
its not equality they want. they have that guaranteed by the constitution just like anyone else. its ‘acceptance’ that they want to force.
and when they do succeed (yes, it may be inevitable) they will ‘enforce’ acceptance by the force of law– imprisonment and and ‘legally’ imposed fines and penalties.
we really only have the chance to make our disagreements known ‘before’ it happens. google about what happpened in Canada. Pastors put in jail and churches fined for speaking the Word of God on sunday about the sin of homosexuality. Hate speech they called it and still do.
Do we want this? or are we just going to abdicate our own voting rights as citizens? too many people want us as christians to not speak as citizens. They don’t want us to speak for God and because we are christians they don’t even want us to participate in the discussion.
ok, i’m done with this thread for today. did not mean to comment so much. please accept my apologies Michael if it seems I have taken over. not my intent
enjoy the rest of the day
Persecution would probably be the best thing for the American church.
working my way through the thread and praying – many comments have my mind saying “aha” or “amen”
i’m thinking right now that the way we welcome any sinner into the Family is the model for how we welcome the homosexual sinner into the Family . . . we are all only sinners, saved by the grace, mercy and power of the One Who is God and Worthy to be God . . . anything that is clearly stated in Scripture as sin must be acknowledged as sin . . . i haven’t re-read the link at #12, yet (i intend to) . . . last night, one thing stayed with me – his church welcomes struggling pedophiles, but watches over them like hawks, necessarily isolating them to a very great extent **because** of their besetting sin, not because they are sinners . . . it sure isn’t mindless singin, stompin, hallelujah, glory time for the Church now
Michael, here is the question I have though about ‘culture in the Church’ (note – I use the captial C)
Aren’t we (you, me, many others here) coming from a certain POV as to ‘right and wrong’ for Christians.
In other words, we talk about divorce stats in the church being apalling. We talk about Christians getting abortions, or living in fornication, about homosexuality. We talk about getting our own house in order first before we dare talk to society about right and wrong.
That’s fine. But the Church (large C) in America consists of a lot of churches (small c) that actually agree with abortion, homosexuality, living together, divorce.
So what do we do when Minister X goes on Piers Morgan, representing Jesus Christ to Piers’ audience, and proceeds to discuss how these cultural issues are not wrong and it’s just those right-wing fundies that are more interested in politics than Jesus, who make a lot of noise?
Do we not respond? Should we be silenced because, against years of my teaching on the subject, I might find out that someone in my church is getting a no-fault divorce, or had an abortion?
I think America is following in lockstep with Western Europe. Drugs and sex were the first things tolerated.
Then came Islam. THAT is where true evil lies. THAT is what is destroying Europe. The same PC mindset that dares not call evil, evil, a mindset developed over the years on issues of sex and drugs, now looks the other way at any and all things Muslims do.
Here’s a tragic example. Muslim men running a child sex trade while the British all looked the other way – for fear of offending them. Please read this article. Especially the details that STILL the press insists on calling them “Asian men” instead of Pakistani Muslims.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9254651/Asian-sex-gang-young-girls-betrayed-by-our-fear-of-racism.html
This is the USA’s path. We see honor killings, sharia law principles being brought into our courts…and (like Europe) we are facing a day of economic collapse and great chaos as a result.
I would wager I am much more likely to one day end up in jail for something I preach Islamic related than I will on the issue of homosexuality.
I used to be against Homosexual marriage but now I say let them get their state sponsored license. They will still not be married in God’s eyes and that is all that really matters. With my citizenship being in Heaven I really am not focused on the in’s and out’s of this issue the way I used to be. No piece of paper will give homosexuals credibility in the marriage department so really no need for us believers to worry about it. I really see a problem with Pastors having the power to divorce a couple, this should be God’s decision not a man’s. With physical abuse on both gender’s parts I fear many will be forced to stay in toxic marriage if Pastor’s are given this power.
As a matter of fact just do away with all the civil marriages and let people get married under God. Wasn’t a marriage in the genesis days made by a Man taking a woman into his tent and consummating it of course with the agreement between both of them that they were to be Husband and Wife. Didn’t read of an official document being signed or a Man performing the ceremony in Genesis.
We see honor killings, sharia law principles being brought into our courts…and (like Europe) we are facing a day of economic collapse and great chaos as a result.
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This was poorly written. I meant to compare our coming economic collapse to Europe’s. I did not mean that the Islamic influence was causing the collapse.
:: NEWS FLASH ::
…after Obama’s recent statement, Mitt Romney countered. He took the hard line Mormon stance and stated that “marriage is between a man and a woman and a woman and a woman and a woman”.
rimshot
The problem with being a Culture Warrior is, Where does it end? seems like an endless rabbit trail when we should be focused on preaching the Gospel. What good is it to try and uphold certain civil laws but yet not focus on proclaiming the Gospel so that hearts will be changed thereby making moot civil laws that promote sinful lifestyles. The bottom line is that the acceptance of homosexuality is here to say, this is a Mega Trend. I listen to Frank Pastore and even call in at times but that is aperfect example of the inbalance that takes place by getting too involved in political issues.
Thank you for that clarification, AV.
Having worked in a field with more contact and memories than I wish I had with victims and perps alike the bottom line is that it is NOT a racial issue.
There are rings of black, hispanic, asian folks which include even women who are finding girls and boys to offer for sale. Unfortunately there are consumers of all races and socioeconomic groups that make it a lucrative trade. They sit in our churches and in our government as well as in our pubs and public squares. The ones who get busted don’t always make the news. And way too many don’t get busted at all.
Our country’s and the world’s underbelly is not really that much more evil than it has ever been. Who, what and why it gets reported about changes more with the times than the actual evils themselves.
I think the overall threat from Muslims is vastly overstated. I mean we still don’t have all the facts from 9/11. I know that in my life Islam was barely a blip on the radar. In fact I think that the Christians of old really pushed much our African American population to embrace the NOI which I considered a far greater thre4at than traditional Islam. Muslims are just a few hundred years behind the Chrisitans in days past that killed and owned slaves.
Apostle Paul said some things are so disgusting even unbelievers avoid mentioning them.
Don’t get me wrong I think that Islam is a false religion that is harmful but I think that we are getting hoodwinked by our Government into making them the modern day communists
Major opps- forgot to include predominantly white gangs who also focus on minors for sex trade. ALL races are represented in this evil every step of the way.
Dansk – which is why such things were not widely reported in mass media for most of our history.
Here in San Gabriel, Rosemead and Temple City the sex slave deal with Asian was really a problem for years, don’t know if it still is
SR – You misunderstood my point. I did not say we were the same as Europe, but are on that path. It started with a denial of the authority of Scripture by the higher critical schools, and permeated the culture.
I can’t take my eyes off Europer. My jaw drops regularly when I read the news of the day from England and France and Belgium.
Guess what. 40 years ago, Islam was nothing more than a blip on the radar of the average Brit. Heck, even 28 years ago when I was in London it was nothing like today.
Been to Deerborn lately?
My point is that there is no separation of mosque and state in Islam. What we as Christians recognize as a positive, (in large part due to our understanding of European History after the Reformation, coupled with the founding of this land) the vast majority of Muslims simply do not accept.
If the current birth rates and immigration continues in Europe, most of the continent will be Islamic in a few decades.
Does anyone think Christians will be allowed to live in peace in such an environment. Is there any place today where Islam is the clear majority and Christians are able to worship in peace?
Bottom line. As stupid as it might be to do so, one can freely burn a Bible, blaspheme Jesus Christ in the most repulsive manner and do so in the name of art and free speech here in America. At most a few pastors might yell at you.
Try anything similar to Islam, the Koran and Mohammed, and you might get killed. You certainly will be villified by the media and our cowardly politicians. It is a PC double standard already encouraged, that will only fertilize our land to where we become like Europe in a few decades.
been doing a lot of thinking as i read the thread today (can’t believe it’s one o’clock already) – good comments and thoughts by everyone . . . G’s rim-shot – grateful for the chuckle, but the truth lurks there, too
my question is, i think, one for the leadership of the Church’s churches . . . where are you? taking pot-shots at the world’s condition does not help the flock . . . we need a grounded, educated approach to help us set our minds and stand – not mindlessly; we need to be grounded as we are smack in the middle Babylon’s rising last gasp . . . we can’t isolate the Faith, keeping it from those wanting/needing to be where we are . . . Lord, help us to be stronger and purer than Lot. Can we be infused with Truth and the Holy Spirit, be salt and light?
Quite a time to be called to pastor a flock . . . praying
may have given Rachel Held Evans too quick a read . . . but, i am glad that the world sees the Church as anti-homosexual . . . but, it is too bad that we’re seen as against categories of sin – against certain people – instead of being seen as rock hard haters of the **fact** of sin as modeled by our Lord, Himself – too bad, that we’ve gotten sucked into trying to hold onto the nation, instead of trying to build up our witness in our personal walks in the Faith
“rock hard haters of the **fact** of sin as modeled by our Lord, Himself ” . . ?. . hmmm, let me clarify . . . our Lord hated sin, He didn’t model sin for us . . . hmmm, but He did become the bearer of sin . . . per 2 Corinthians 5:20-21 . . . somebody exclaimed, “Oh, the depth of the riches . . .” Romans 11:33
AV,
“That’s fine. But the Church (large C) in America consists of a lot of churches (small c) that actually agree with abortion, homosexuality, living together, divorce.”
You described the ELCA – I am sure that they will open the church for same sex marriages on day one. But that’s what happens when you stop being Christian.
That is why I only speak of my church. It’s my job to keep them from going on that path. I can’t control others.
couple random quotes from #10 –
“Redemption is not just a restoration of our status before God through the life and work of Jesus Christ, but a restoration of our relationship with God as well. And our relationship with God is expressed in how we live. ”
“In our modern world where media and marketing reign, appealing to particular demographics has become commonplace. The church has gained a great sense of surface energy by emphasizing ministries that attract and entertain . . . . But enthusiasm is no substitute for the understanding. . . . .”
Just reading through this thread an thinking to myself…
Since when is the church about teaching issues?
Or Church…
The woman pastor who is an atheist is just a garden variety apostate. It is sad but not so unusual that it need a big examination. She probably never really had a saving encounter with God but if she did well, she is just another fall away like so many. I didn’t really read enough to say but I didn’t see real evidence of her having been given a new heart.
She didn’t miss God because she didn’t know him. But I am not anything but saddened by her case… not impressed but saddened
I have been told many times I really do not know God, love Him, do His work, worship Him, fill in the blank. I often miss God and if I ever left I think I would be desperate for God.
I watched this documentary about a boat found on the Sea of Galilee. The documentary was on NRB and Parable TV. You know if I had one dream I could do before I pass it would be to do documentaries and write stories. It would be something I could leave behind. I am sorely lacking in that area in my opinion.
BD,
“She didn’t miss God because she didn’t know him. But I am not anything but saddened by her case… not impressed but saddened”
i’m not sure that’s a comfort to those who struggle or have struggled with their faith in God when they go thru difficult times. sometimes we as christians can be so careless with what we say and maybe the theology that leads us to say it.
please reconsider this position in light of compassion and perhaps reexamine the teachings that have led you to it.
i’m sorry to be so direct to you.
MIC,
I got the feeling she struggled more about losing her position in her job and community, and choir, than with losing her faith.
She mocked God, laughing about burning in hell. She implied that Christians hate atheists. I don’t hate atheists. My heart aches for them. I pray for them.
I came off feeling very sorry and sad for her. To have tasted the good things of Christ and rejected Him.
I don’t believe a child of God, a born again person, can be “un” born again.
I don’t hate her…..I feel sorrow for her and pray she will turn to Jesus. Praying for her husband and family today too.
I think the woman is a classic case of one who through years of neglecting her faith, refusing the good gifts God gives us to sustain our faith (word & sacrament), just let her faith wither and die.
Or as Chuck Smith would say (and I agree) “she did not stay under the spout where the glory comes out”.
i just was saddened by the story.
think about it. a woman rises to pastor in a mainline denom. starts to question the foundations of her faith. where does she really have to turn?
other pastors or ministers? well, that probably wasn’t available since she had every reason from the article to believe she would just get tossed aside.
and anyone in ministry could tell you there is almost an unwritten rule against showing weakness, doubt or struggle to a congregation of ‘lay people’. the ‘sheeple’ need to have a firm foundation of a pastor who knows it all, believes it all, and doesn’t waver to feel secure in ‘their’ faith… and secure ‘giving units’ make things in the church go smoother.
her christian husband’s ‘support’ of her unbelief is the only thing that seems compassionate in the story, but even that i think may just be his effort not to push her away. he may have as little idea how to counsel or win his wife back to faith in Christ as the denominational structure has ‘tolerance’ for her questions and doubts.
i’m saddened for this woman that she felt so alone and isolated at at time she really needed the reassurance of those who could have led her back to Jesus. the fact that she mocked what she had once believed may be a nervous reflex of having realized she had just made a radical choice to abandon all she had held since childhood and maybe hid a fear that even if she wanted to, she wouldn’t be allowed to return…
just my take
anyway you slice it, it’s a sad situation that could have turned out differently. telling her she turned away because she was never saved in the first place and saying that her whole life of faith uptil the point she doubted was a lie doesn’t do anything to beckon her back (or win her ‘truly’ for the first time if that’s what you want to say).
it actually does the opposite. it closes the door and says ‘don’t even try to live the lie anymore, you’re not elect anyway if you turned away’ how helpful or compassionate is that?
again, i’m sorry to be so direct but stories like this think of the time i was away from the Lord after high school and until i was 23. all that time people could have justified to themselves the same things to write me off too. yet here i am, returned to Christ and recieved back to His arms as the prodigal son. i am so grateful for His mercy and grace in taking me back and placing someone in my life that cared to lead me back to the God who never gave up on me.
now i’m done or i will start bawling my eyes out
M i c
What did you see in the story that indicated genuine experience of the grace of Jesus upon her? I admit that I did not read it very carefully but I did not see or hear the sweet fragrance of the grace of Christ upon her original confession. I just saw christian religion which anyone can dismantle.
As for compassion? Well I don’t feel much in this case, I did not know her, I only see the vultures celebrating the corpse and calling themselves compassionate because they received her into unbelief…
When Peter spoke of dogs returning to their vomit he was all full of warm fuzzies and when Paul spoke of the concision and exhorted their self-mutilation he was not all that pastoral.
Like I said this is just garden variety apostasy that the press is celebrating because they got a christian scalp.
I am not sorry this woman lost the scraps of her tepid Christianity. I am sorry that it will be ballyhooed by the atheistic vultures.
I am a commentor on a blog I am not her old friend, her church members(who she deceived and betrayed) I am not her bishop, I am not personally involved in her case. I assure you that if I were she would have received fair and patient treatment and a kind release. But I would presented to her the living Jesus not the dead doctrines whose questions she could not answer. She appears to me to have been a social christian and not a person with a regenerate heart. BUT AGAIN… I only know the national inquirer type story that has been released. Perhaps I will read more fully the NPR interview… but that source does not know how to ask the kind of questions that probe genuine faith.
Now MIC you feel free to tell me what a heartless jackass I am but before you do just remember to be tender with me as I am a very sensitive soul.
Dread is bringing it!
BD, amen to your #72 . . . not sure just ‘anyone’ can do the dismantling
mic, don’t get suckered in by that ‘sensitive soul’ assertion . . . the BD that shows up here is a very caring soul, but sensitive? as in delicate? hmmm
just realized that the PhxP is my meditation site – sometimes i have to go back up the thread to see if i posted something or just thought it
hadn’t read link one . . . after doing so, i pray for that couple and none of the redeemed should shun Teresa – argue/debate? maybe – IMHO and FWIW
‘don’t even try to live the lie anymore, you’re not elect anyway if you turned away’
Does mic think that BD is a Calvinist?
I think MiC thinks we’re all Calvinists.
Or being evangelized by one
I am absolutely not a Calvinist but I do believe that regeneration has genuine marks… for example my reading leads me to believe that Erhmann’s testimony of conversion is credible and he is an example of one who lost saving faith. But this story is tepid in that regard.
I agree with BD on this one.
MIC….in those years that your faith wavered, were you mocking God? Were you cheering on others to forsake faith, were you publishing your rejection of Christ? Or were your wrestling, convicted, struggling , etc, etc.
I am sad for Teresa like you. But I don’t think she wanted to be led Back to Jesus….I don’t think she had ever turned toward Him. From the article I got that she will filled with church and the perks of church community…. and it did not satisfy….she was not filled with the living God. That was the impression the article gave me, FWIW.
I’m gonna go ahead and throw this out there…
Nobody that knows the Jesus I know could ever stop believing in Him.
Josh,
Amen
I don’t believe people have their faith taken away, but I do see that people do allow their faith to wither and die.
The story in the sower, the one who received the faith, and not only received it but did so with great joy… Jesus even said that they lasted a short time – but hey, they were there and they lasted.
It continues “When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away” I don’t think you can fall away from something you never had or were not a part of.
I want to be clear in my position – I think falling away from the faith is very difficult to do.
Josh, amen . . . but there have been times when the Father has had to bring me back to center, to focus – He’ll do that for this woman **if** she’s just overwhelmed with her inadequacies and, in her pride, she doesn’t want to confess . . .
MLD, it’s a root problem, perhaps?
The fruitfulness may be the perseverance – so those who did not persevere, produced no fruit, but it doesn’t mean that they weren’t capable of producing fruit – they withered and died… but as I said, they were there.
Let’s stop being hypothetical.
I know Jesus. I couldn’t stop being a Christian anymore than I could stop being my dad’s son. I couldn’t imagine anyone – ANYONE – actually knowing Jesus, and then saying they don’t know Him anymore. Impossible.
So again, strip away the hypothetical stuff. Could YOU fall away from the faith?
Josh,
My mistake to quote Jesus. Next time I will reference YOUR experiences as my source of authority.
I just shot off an email to Jesus – it was He who spoke in hypothetical. I told him to cut it out!
Josh, no hypothetical? YES, i could fall away – BUT, the shepherd would find me as many souls can witness to . . .
if the seed cannot produce roots it cannot sustain . . . there are many souls upon whom the seeds fall, but the composition of the soul (soil?) does not yield go the dynamic, the potential, of the seed . . . not trying to be nebulous, but i’m not sure i have a good, concise picture in my mind of just what is represented by the ‘seed,’ the ‘soil,’ – i don’t think the seed is ‘faith,’ i think it is the Word (Gospel?)
our souls (the receptivity of our minds, emotions and will) are the soil are they not?
pride may be what represents shallow ground? ego is the rocky soil? the hot, withering sun may be this world’s distractions? just thinking out loud
somebody just send me this: “i speak my mind, because biting my tongue hurts”
Em – I don’t think you could fall away completely. You could certainly wander, but He would leave the 99 to rescue the one, as you have said.
MLD – whatever.
MLD, someone once observed that it is a healthy plant that produces fruit, but the fruit is not optional . . . so perseverance (growing in the nurture and admonition of the Lord) = health = fruit?
I hope this does not descend into an eternal security debate… We all know the parameters of that one.
“does not yield go?” i did not write that, there’s something wrong with this computer or the internet service . . . or something, but i did not type “go”
BD, you scared?
i guess i agree with BD, if what he’s saying is that he hopes that this does not descend into and eternal debate on security . . .
I just go by what Jesus said – they received the exact same thing as the one who produces good fruit in bountiful numbers. He received this with great joy and he LASTED – even if it was just a short time, this is important, Jesus says he was doing the same thing as the producer of good bountiful fruit – but for a short time. And then, Jesus says, he fell away.
I don’t think that it can be anymore clear.
BD is a scaredy-cat
I too wanted to avoid an eternal security debate. I just wanted to know, personally, if YOU could fall away from the faith, completely. MLD mistook me for Alex for a moment, there.
time for me to quit my typos and meditate on what’s been shared today
MLD, @96 . . .. so it IS a ‘root’ thing . . .
What about YOU, MLD? Not him, they, or whoever else. Will YOU ever leave the faith?
Josh,
I don’t think anyone plans on leaving the faith and I don’t think it is an active event. Many who do not think like me think that God’s good gifts are there to get you saved and not necessary to sustain the faith.
Word and sacrament are there just for that reason – to sustain faith. If people remove themselves, through the cares of the world etc., then over a period of time starve themselves – faith disappears.
Do you not agree that word and sacrament are there to sustain faith?
Em,
yes you can say it’s a root thing. Those who persevere have roots and produce fruit. Those who allow their roots to shrivel, die and don’t produce and do not persevere.
MLD – Refusing to answer simple questions since 1903!
Josh,
So have you blacked out the warning passages in your Bible?
But you refused to answer my question – “Do you not agree that word and sacrament are there to sustain faith?”
That’s because I asked first. Simple yes or no will suffice – Could you leave the faith? YOU – not someone else.
To answer your question – 1. I do believe God uses methods to sustain our faith. 2. I don’t believe in “Sacraments”.
I can’t imagine leaving Christ right now, as I type this BUT remember that St. Peter was willing to die for Christ yet was intimidated by a servant girl into saying he didn’t even know Him at all. (This is not exactly the same thing but it goes to show you never know what you might do.)
The people I know who fell away from the faith were those who got caught up in the things of the world and eventually the world seemed more real to them than God did. By and by Jesus seemed like a faint memory. They continually fed the flesh and stopped feeding the spirit until one day I they woke up and decided they didn’t believe any of that old stuff anymore.
Josh,
I answered your question when I said that no one plans on leaving the faith. I also answered you when I said it was not an active event. Not every question qualifies for a yes or no answer.
So, you said “1. I do believe God uses methods to sustain our faith.”
Why does your faith need sustaining if it cannot wither or die? Why is it just self sustaining?
“I answered your question when I said that no one plans on leaving the faith. I also answered you when I said it was not an active event. Not every question qualifies for a yes or no answer.”
It was my question! That was the only answer I was asking for.
“So, you said “1. I do believe God uses methods to sustain our faith.”
Why does your faith need sustaining if it cannot wither or die? Why is it just self sustaining?”
This doesn’t even make sense MLD. Couldn’t you just as easily ask why did God even create us all?
Ah yes…another security debate without one mention of the role of the Holy Spirit.
Always profitable.
I could leave Jesus, but He won’t leave me. I have eternal life.
The only ones I’ve run into that left the faith, never believed in faith alone in Jesus for a permanent gift of eternal life in the first place. I know because I asked them. They believed all along that they needed to be in some kind of works-based “good enough” theology. So they weren’t saved at all. My 2 cents.
AV – If I mention God or Jesus, I have also mentioned the Holy Spirit. Just so you know.
AV,
But I mentioned Jesus all over the place – I doubt he contradicts the Holy Spirit.
Woah, me and MLD just totally agreed, while in the midst of an argument!
Thanks AV!
I agree 100% with Xenia’s 106 up until the last part. I don’t think one wakes up one day and decides not to believe any longer. I think one wakes up one day and it’s just not there any longer.
So I guess all those books and seminary classes about the unique ministry and work of the 3rd Person of the Triune God are just a duplication of the ministry and work of the 2nd Person of the Triune God?
I’m glad my Masters Thesis wasn’t rejected then. Apparently, I’m all screwed up….
Would love to hear you guys preach on the Upper Room Discourse and what Jesus was really telling the apostles up there the night of His betrayal.
One God in Essence and Attributes. Three Persons in working out those Attributes in His creation. The Father did not die on the cross for us. Nor was Jesus praying to Himself all those times in the Gospels.
(Snark intentional, but not personal. Love you guys. Have to run now though)
That’s what you get for going to cemetery.
I think one wakes up one day and it’s just not there any longer.<<<<
Yes, that's what I meant to say. Not a decison, more of a realization.
Since I never brought up who in the Trinity does what, but only what Jesus said in Matt 13, I can only assume that seminary taught AV that Jesus and the Holy Spirit can contradict each other.
But I know better, so he must have misspoke.
But AV, I would like to hear your take about Jesus saying that the faith/word (or whatever you want to say is represented by the seed) had the exact same reception by they guy I am talking about and the one who produced bountiful fruit – was received with great joy (not under compulsion) lasted in that faith for some time… and then fell away.
Was the bountiful fruit guy not save in the beginning either – is there a probationary period?
but, it’s almost the week end (probably already for Josh)
okay, you all have my mind running around like the little ball on the roulette wheel – jumping in and out and this conversation spins
is it the new **birth**, the born again aspect that throws us? . . . we all know that not every embryonic “seed” comes to term – to what the abortion advocates like to call “viability” . . . are there “premature,” aborted spiritual births ? (BTW – i think the Holy Spirt is involved in our 2nd birthing
) . . .
it is possible to get a plant to produce quite a bit of top-growth (fruit? dunno) and then die from lack of root growth . . .
now i’m going to do what Xenia just did and part (again) from this thread . . . please don’t say anything that tempts me
Xenia said:
“The people I know who fell away from the faith were those who got caught up in the things of the world and eventually the world seemed more real to them than God did. By and by Jesus seemed like a faint memory. They continually fed the flesh and stopped feeding the spirit until one day I they woke up and decided they didn’t believe any of that old stuff anymore.”
I witnessed this first hand from the former brother who God used to lead me in his direction. In 1995 I moved to Alhambra, CA. with my ex wife and got a job at Staples where I met this on fire brother who invited me to four square church. He was very passionate for the Lord, in high school he would open air preach and many at the fellowship looked up to him. He was a great example to the youth and to me and my ex wife. A year later I became born again as did my ex wife. This brother who quickly became my best friend went on a mission trip to Japan. Before he left he spoke in front of the congregation and weeped, there was not a dry eye in the house. This left a big impression on my ex wife. He went away for 6 months and we wrote each other all the time as this was before the internet really blew up. When he came back I was excited to see what God did in his life while he was away on the mission trip. I worked at the 76 station in Alhambra so one day he walked to my work and I didn’t recognize him at all as he grew a huge afro. When we talked about the trip all he could talk about was the Japanese women and how he loved their culture. He didn’t want to talk about anything spiritual as he told me the others on the trip got on his nerves and he was turned off by the whole thing. When I came to the Lord I wasn’t that far removed from being a member of a Chicano Militant group so I had all kinds of literature and books. My friend started getting really interested in this stuff about the Chicano movement and anti Government stuff. It was liked we switched places as God was showing me to depart from that stuff but my friend was moving towards that. He even met members of my former group and was impressed that I was a former member. I was getting more into the things of God he was going to rally’s, protests and such. He started studying Islam with the reasoning that he wanted to be prepared to defend Christianity but I knew this was unwise because I sensed that it was more than that to him. He soon became very sympathetic to them and started becoming very racist. He was buying books and literature that supported communist viewpoints. Everyone was shocked at what he was becoming but there was this kind of attitude in the fellowship that he would come to his senses because after all he was a pillar of the congregation and everyone looked up to him. People were like “He will be a prodigal son”.
We all waited for him to return but instead he kept drifting farther and farther away. Finally the Pastor informed our Youth Pastor not invest time in him anymore as there were other youth that needed the attention. We were all young at the time as he was two years younger and the youth pastor would still spend time with the 18-25 years olds. My friend became bitter towards the Senior Pastor because of his edict to the youth Pastor. Me and my group of friends took for granted that he would return to the Lord. More and more he would skip services to where he stopped going all together. I would still spend time with him hoping that he would repent as he was becoming more racist and hateful by the day. His Mom would weep for him and she raised him in the Church. He then started buying guns for an eventual showdown with the police or any government official. He was attending more and more protests, started buying NBC Masks and the anarchist cook book. He even tried to steal fireworks form the church firework booth and I confronted him which led to a heated exchange. One day I was having lunch with him and he stated that if there was ever a holy war between Muslims and Christians that he would take the Muslims side. I knew right then and there that I had to withdraw from him, it was painful but needed. After that his life became getting drunk, getting high and going to the shooting range as he was now stock piling all kinds of weapons. His appearance even deteriorated as people who had known him before couldn’t even recognize him as he was formerly was a clean cut guy. Finally a few years ago he was arrested for threatening on his neighbors with a gun. I decided to visit him at the county jail as his sentence was only for a year. I thought that this may be just the thing he needed to come back to God however upon visiting him I realzied he hadn’t changed all that much and just told me that he wasn’t going to buy guns anymore or break the law. As soon as he got out he started stock piling weapons again and went back to getting high and drunk. Again I had to withdraw. I haven’t talked to him since the last time I visited him in county Jail.
@120.
I watched many walk away from the faith in my life…..
tried to do so myself twice….. didn’t work…..
The Lord knows those who are His…… just because someone says the right things, has the right ferverency during prayer, sings loudly with the hands raised and are standing while everyone else is sings, preaches the gospel……etc……. does not mean they have been born again……
Matthew 7:22,23 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
notice the word never in verse 23…………..
Centy,
The people in the verse you quote are different from the ones we are talking about. The ones in your example are people who faked it the whole time. We are talking about people who had a genuine faith and turned from that faith.
I know that I am saved because I believe the promises of Christ. I put zero value on my Christian experience. I know that I am secure in Christ… but I take the warning passages very seriously. I don’t believe that Jesus and the disciples spoke of some impossible scenario, just for effect.
just because someone says the right things, has the right ferverency during prayer, sings loudly with the hands raised and are standing while everyone else is sings, preaches the gospel……etc……. does not mean they have been born again<<<
Alright, I believe this can be true, but what does it mean? It sounds as if these people really and truly believe they are saved and if they aren't saved…. well, what can they do about it that they haven't already done? And how do any of us know for a fact that we aren't in the same boat- thinking we are saved but maybe we aren't, maybe we are just fooling ourselves? And if we worry about this (as I worried about it for decades) then what can we do- ask the Lord into our hearts again? And again? And again? Always fretting that we might be numbered among those who think they are saved but really aren't so let's give it another try and maybe this time it will be for real? As I did for decades? Because the people I know who fell away were just as sure as you and I that they were truly saved and if you told them they'd give it all up one day they would be offended and shocked.
The explanation "They must not have been saved in the first place" is more chilling than the thought that you can "lose" your salvation because if this is the case, how do any of us know if we are "really saved in the first place?" And the wistful hope (to keep the doctrine intact, I guess) that they will come back to the Lord before the proverbial bus hits them…. We all know this doesn't always happen.
All my decades as an Evangelical, I never ever had assurance of my salvation because as best as I could tell, it all hinged on my own sincerity. And I am not a very sincere person, so I was quite miserable about the state of my salvation. I was always told that the fact that I worried about it so much was evidence that I was saved but that seemed rather lame, more wishful thinking. I'd be told "No, it's not your sincerity that saves you, it's God who saves you… but just in case you didn't really mean it the last time, let me lead you through the sinner's prayer one more time."
We all know people who appeared sincere and believed they were sincere and yet fell away and became unbelievers over time and were lost lost lost. Because there's one thing you must say about a true Christian: He believes. And believing is the ONE THING we all agree is needful. If you quit believing you are no longer a Christian.
mld,
bah!!! read the context of the passage I quoted. Like I’ve said, I seen many, too many fall away. Street Preachers. Evangelists. Pastors. Deacons. Elders. Those who demonstrated gifts. Those who testified that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father… and it is my hope and prayer that the jury is still out on them .
what is genuine faith? we all think we have it and we don’t base it one experience either…..
what does it mean to fall away? are you eternally damned? do you have to be a part of Mark Driscoll’s sanitation crew in heaven? something else?
Centy,
I don’t have the answers to the questions – that is why I stuck to the conversation Jesus was having with the disciples in Matthew 13.
Whatever Jesus meant when he said that they fell away, is what I mean.
“20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Xenia said it best @123 (every word)
I like the ending “If you quit believing you are no longer a Christian.”
Which to me leaves an non believer going to heaven, because even though he no longer believes in Jesus -Jesus believes in him.
But hey, I’m the guy who thinks that hell will be populated with people whose sins have already been forgiven – go figure.
“We all know people who appeared sincere and believed they were sincere and yet fell away and became unbelievers over time and were lost lost lost. Because there’s one thing you must say about a true Christian: He believes. And believing is the ONE THING we all agree is needful. If you quit believing you are no longer a Christian.”
Xenia, Sadly we have a family member who fits the above description. He now is as anti-christian as anyone I’ve known. His ears are closed to the Gospel and I wonder if his heart has or will soon be hardened to the point where believing will no longer be possible for him. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. They really help me in trying to wrap my mind around such a difficult subject.
“All my decades as an Evangelical, I never ever had assurance of my salvation because as best as I could tell, it all hinged on my own sincerity. And I am not a very sincere person, so I was quite miserable about the state of my salvation.”
That’s why I was always against those that taught people to put their assurance in their sincerity, or evidence of works, or anything of self.
My assurance that I will be in heaven, is based on the blood of Jesus, and nothing else. So I know I will be in heaven. Faith alone in Jesus is indeed the Gospel (Romans 4:5).
Jesus alone saves. Jesus plus anything, isn’t the Gospel.
Andy, I used to try to comfort myself with just what you said, and as a matter of fact, I probably was being saved during those years, thanks only to the mercy of God. But what about those who appear to fall away? What can we say about them? I think it is disingenuous to say “Well, they were never saved to begin with” or “They will come back to God before they die” or the worst of all, “Even if they don’t believe anymore, God will remember that they did believe at one time and will welcome them into heaven.” How do you, personally, explain those who appear to fall away? This conversation isn’t really about what saves us because we all agree that salvation is based on the blood of Christ. This conversation is really about “falling away.” Can a true believer fall away? If so, how can this be explained in a non-disengenuous way? And if a person can’t fall away, how do we explain what we see with our own eyes?
As to the importance of sincerity, every altar call I have ever heard (and believe me, I’ve heard plenty) always included a version of this phrase: “If you really meant it when you [said the prayer, raised your hand, stood up, walked down the aisle] then you are saved. “If you really meant it” = “If you were sincere.” There’s no way around it. If you weren’t sincere when you prayed to receive Christ, then it didn’t count. All the time I hear people explaining away a fallen ex-believer by saying “Well, he must not have really meant it ten years ago when he said the prayer.” What other explanation can be offered, if you believe in OSAS? I am not trying to be difficult, really I’m not. This whole topic caused me much anguish for many years. Maybe I was too introspective, but I really had zilch faith in my sincerity about anything. Did I really mean it? If I really meant it, why did I have so many doubts? Why was I so darn fruitless? If I fell away, would people say “Well, she must not have meant it 50 years ago when she walked down the aisle in the little rural Baptist church in Ohio.” Because this is exactly what people say when a previously devout Christian abandons the faith: He didn’t really mean it.
I would like to add that while I was probably not very sincere when I accepted the Lord at age 12, God is good and He has led me along by the hand all these years and my sincerity has improved considerably. That is, I really mean it now.
This is not the case with everyone, it seems.
every now and then someone uses a word or a reference here that sends me googling . . .
beware of Xenia’s Parthian shots . . . those were guys after our Pentagon’s own hearts
the more you all examine real faith, real salvation . . . the more loose ends are beginning to make sense to me – as does Calvin’s view . . . thank God, our redemption is not dependent on us . . . and it seems the only consensus here is that we either take to it . . . or we don’t
Consider a Bily Graham Crusade. (I admire Billy Graham very much, by the way.) He preaches a sermon and invites people to come forward to accept the Lord and become a Christian. Thousands of people stream to the front where they are counseled and prayed with by hundreds of volunteers. Yet statistics show that a large percentage of these apparent converts will never go to church and go no further with Christ. In other words, they do not appear to have received salvation.
How can we explain this? If it’s God who does all the saving, why doesn’t He just save the whole bunch of them? They went forward, they showed interest, they seemed to be asking to be saved. They are saying “Yes” to Jesus. Yet a large group do not receive salvation that night. Why? The Calvinists have an answer for this (which I do not agree with but at least it’s an answer). The answer almost everyone who believes in OSAS would have to be “They didn’t mean it, they weren’t sincere.” What other reason could be given, apart from the answer a Calvinist could give?
Xenia, ” They went forward, they showed interest, they seemed to be asking to be saved. They are saying “Yes” to Jesus. Yet a large group do not receive salvation that night. Why?”
dunno (‘course i don’t) but i suspect it has something to do with the good soil versus the rocky soil etc.
**why** some of us are “good soil?” i wouldn’t even try to guess . . . perhaps, God the Holy Spirit will edify this evening . . . for me to read tomorrow
God keep all close and comforted
My salvation’s assurance is not based on sincerity, but on the power of God through the work of the Holy Spirit, as stated in the Bible, the authoritative word of God.
Sealed, earnest, baptized, indwelt, bearing witness…
Done and done.
I am a Calvinist, and I dig 136!
So….. what of those who fall away?
No one answers this. You are all telling me why you are sure YOU are saved but are not giving me an explanation for those who would say the exact same thing you just said but ten years later fall away.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j5h9IgwYgs
Xenia #129, I can’t gauge how sincere I am about all of it. I can’t do it. I feel sincere right now. But tomorrow I’ll get into whatever the day has, maybe I’ll fall a bit off the track, and I won’t feel sincere at all.
What I am, is CONVINCED. I am convinced that Jesus paid for me, and I have eternal life that is irrevocable. I believe that is what the Lord Jesus is asking of us.
John 11:25-27, Jesus says to Mary, “Do you believe this?”. What is “this”? It is, that he/she who believes in Jesus will never die (spiritually, that is, never end up in the lake of fire).
Do I believe that my believing in Jesus means I’ll never be in the lake of fire? Yes. I’m convinced of that. Jesus said it. It’s settled.
So those that make a profession, later fall away, my question is, what was their profession? Were they convinced as Jesus asked them to be in John 11:25-27? Or did they “commit their lives to living for Jesus”? As I remember many an altar call preacher say something to that effect. If they committed their lives to living for Jesus, well that’s not the Gospel. It is noble. We should do it. But it’s not the Gospel.
It might sound like semantics to some. But it’s not semantics to me. I used to have a bad struggle with the salvation issue. Because I was “following Jesus”, to get into heaven. “Committing to Jesus”, “surrendering to Jesus”, “walking with Jesus”. Everything, but believing in Jesus for guaranteed entrance to heaven based only on what Jesus alone did for me.
And now I’m settled. I know I’m saved. Only because of the blood of Jesus.
Over these many years since then, I have asked tons of the fallen away people, what was your assurance based on? I never got an answer from any of them, that it was based on Jesus and His blood alone. I always heard an answer that was something of self/works. Now perhaps there are fallen away people out there that would give the right answer. But I haven’t run into any of them yet.
The Lord had mercy on me. I give Him 100% of the credit.
X,
My father was a pastor. He was respected by thousands. I still run into people to this day who recall the impact that he had on their lives. He died stoned out of his mind on methadone while driving his Harley down an Arizona highway at 75 miles an hour. Before he died, he rejected everything he ever taught, and rejected me for following in his footsteps.
I don’t know.
Do I have to?
AV
136, AMEN!
To answer the Billy Graham question/issue, I’m not personally impressed with all the “coming forward” people. That’s just me. And I’m not attacking Graham about that, I don’t even know the guy. I’m sure people have been saved that way. But I always wondered, can’t you just stay in your seat and believe in Jesus? What’s this, I must come forward thing?
It puts a block in the minds of some (some, not all), that they must DO something extra beyond just believe in Jesus. For some, that block doesn’t get built. They just believe in Jesus, they’re saved, and they go forward anyway.
But for others, oh the pressure, I’d better go forward, or I’m not a good believer, I won’t be saved if I don’t. That kind of thing. It disrupts the Gospel, for some. Not all. But some.
Well, I guess we have reached an impass. You folks are trusting in Christ to save you and there’s nothing I can complain about there!
I am really not getting the answer I am looking for- you all want to tell me that Christ saved you and I have no argument with that- but I have a different question than the one you all seem to want to answer.
Em understood, though.
I asked earlier – why the warning passages? Were Jesus and the disciples just trying to get a rise out of people.
Were they really just warning about situations that a believer could never be faced with?
Were they just making wisdom statements for effect?
I stated in my #122 why I know that I am saved – and I was just as assertive as AV @ #136 – but I also said I take the warning passages very seriously – I can assume others don’t.
Xenia, those who have fallen away, I haven’t yet found one that was believing in Jesus for guaranteed entrance to heaven, that later fell away. Not one. I’m sure they exist, but I haven’t seen any. All of the fallen away people I’ve run into (and it’s been tons over the years), all said in dozens of different ways, that they weren’t good enough. They missed the point of the Gospel to begin with, and fell away from something that wasn’t the Gospel anyway.
And the blame is at least partially on the preacher they were listening to, that wasn’t saying the Gospel.
I mean, it’s terrific that AV knows for a fact that he’s going to heaven. I never doubted it for a minute. But what about my friend EW who accepted the Lord and lived the life of a devout Christian for many years, bearing good fruit as evidence, but when I talked to her a few years ago she told me she was no longer a Christian and didn’t believe any of “that stuff” anymore.
1. Was it that when she said the Sinner’s Prayer, she didn’t really mean it?
2. Was she just pretending to be a Christian all those years?
3. Was she one of the non-Elect so it didn’t matter if she said the Sinner’s Prayer because there was no hope for her?
4. Did she think she was a Christian all those years but really wasn’t and was just deluded? (And how could she know?)
5. Was she a genuine believer who, exercising her free will, began to choose the things of this world rather than the things of God and eventually lost sight of God and one day realized she no longer believed?
I vote for number 5.
Andy,
“Do I believe that my believing in Jesus means I’ll never be in the lake of fire? ”
This is the question on point. So what happens if you do stop believing? Do you go to heaven as an unbeliever?
MLD, can a saved person, that believed in Jesus for guaranteed entrance to heaven and is saved, later say that they don’t believe?
Yes.
And are they still saved?
Yes.
I am in the extreme minority on this, but my answer is yes to both.
The problem is, someone that believed some works-based theology (which would also include the back door works thing of “my works are the evidence of my salvation”, which fails in Matthew 7:22), is not saved. But they thought they were. They were never saved, since works don’t save. They “followed Jesus”, but never believed in Jesus for free entrance to heaven. They need to go from the works guy, to the believing guy.
I’m not trying to sound smug, by the way. I used to be the former guy, and now I’m the latter.
Andy, I don’t think anyone here is talking about works at all. Unless you are calling “belief in the Lord” a work!
I’m not calling belief in the Lord, a work. But to say that I have to be “sincere enough” to be saved, or “have enough post-conversion works as evidence of salvation” to be saved, those are both works-based theologies, to me.
I’m saying, believe in Jesus to guarantee you a spot in heaven, and leave it at that. But all who I have run into that have fallen away, never fell away from that. They always fell away from “following Jesus”, “committing to Jesus”, “being sincere about Jesus”, etc.
Andy,
“They missed the point of the Gospel to begin with,”
LOL – do you mean to say that to be saved someone has to have complete understanding of the gospel? If that’s the case I have news for you – at least 90% of evangelicals I run into aren’t saved. Try this – I do it and it seems to work.
Ask a professing christian why they are going to heaven. When they begin their reply with “because I…” – I don’t care what the put after that, they totally missed the point of the gospel – because the gospel does nt involve them at all.
The ones (the remaining 10%) who begin their reply “because God…” are saved (according to your standard of ‘understanding the gospel’) .
Andy – I admire a man who is consistent and will come into this conversation and say that an unbeliever can go to heaven. Thanks for the answer.
MLD, you’re saying something that I didn’t say.
Here is what I believe the Gospel to be: Believe in Jesus to take you to heaven.
That’s it.
I don’t believe that anything else is the Gospel. That’s just me. Everyone on earth is welcome to disagree with me, and I’ll be fine with that
“I’m saying, believe in Jesus to guarantee you a spot in heaven, and leave it at that”
I don’t think that is a sincere reason to believe in Jesus – just to get to heaven? Sounds like a ‘me’ generation motivation.
MLD, so now you’re back to telling people they must be “sincere enough” about even why they believe?
It will never be good enough for some people. Fortunately, none of those people are Jesus. Jesus said believe, and go to heaven (John 6:47). I’ll go with Him
The Gospel is:
1. Jesus is the Messiah
2. He rose from the dead
3. Because of this we can have eternal life
Just for Xenia, this is me, what I believe, I would personally change 3 to “because of this we do have eternal life”, irrevocable unchangeable possession
Andy,
I don’t believe in adding adjectives to these term. There is no sincere belief, vs insincere belief – there is just belief or unbelief.
Some one earlier spoke of ‘real’ faith and ‘real’ salvation – totally non biblical terms – you have faith or you don’t. You have salvation or you don’t.
3. We can have eternal life
Not everyone on the planet has eternal life. We have to believe. So the possibility is there for all humans but only those who believe have eternal life. The “we” refers to all humans, not just believers.
(I think you agree?)
MLD okay that I personally agree with, but you were the one that said the person that believed just to go to heaven, was “insincere” somehow
My dad came to faith, due to fear of hell. He came to me one night, and said, “I don’t want to go to hell”. I said, you can know right now that you’ll never be there. And we talked about the Gospel, and he believed, and he later died and is with Jesus right now.
Undoubtedly the believer ought to learn that there is such an awesome personal relationship to have with Jesus, so much of His glory to experience, so much worship He is worthy of, tons of motivations that go beyond heaven vs. hell. But initially, that’s where most people are at, at least that’s been my experience. And Jesus saves them right there.
Xenia in response to 162, yes, I assumed we both assumed that we were talking about a believer, not about any unbeliever
Speaking of the believer, what does the person believe, if they aren’t sure they’re saved? Do they believe in Jesus for a 50/50 chance of heaven? Do they believe in Jesus for a shot at it? Or do they believe in Jesus for a guarantee?
I believe it is only for a guarantee.
I’m going to conclude my part in this conversation by reminding you fine folks that my Church is not the product of the Reformation. We are not monergists, we are synergists. We believe that we must cooperate with God in order to be saved.
Good night, sleep tight, don’t let the bed bugs bite.
Andy, to answer your question before I go, I would say that I believe in Jesus 100 percent right now but I cannot predict the future.
Nite!
Good night Xenia – you fought the good fight tonight
Xenia, Jesus asks if you believe that He will take you to heaven guaranteed (John 11:25-27). Martha answered yes, she believes that. You’d have to answer to Jesus no, that you don’t believe Him?
Good night, I have enjoyed the discussion
The warning passage I see to the Church in the NT is “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”
The litmus test (and how we examine ourselves) is ” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, ”
Now – a couple points are relevant to this discussion.
1) The Bible cannot and does not teach two clearly contradictory things. So you ask me “what about the warning passages” but I can ask you “what about the security passages” Obviously eternal security once regenerated, and the potential of not being saved after regeneration are opposites. So if I have to deal with the warning verses, you have to deal with the security verses. And there are a LOT of those.
2) And this is why I speak of the Holy Spirit. Show me the NT teaching specifically connected to the Holy Spirit leaving the Christian. One is not truly saved unless indwelt by the Spirit (born from above). We are sealed until the day of redemption. He is the earnest (downpayment) until God takes possession of us. He bears witness that we are a child of God. He baptizes us into the Body of Christ, where we are members of His Body.
So where are all (or for that matter ANY) verses that speak in any way, shape or fashion about the Spirit reversing any of the above.
If I am necessary as a member for the effective functioning of the Body of Christ, and the Spirit places me there – why then does the Spirit kick me out? Aren’t we all needed for the effective working of the Body (i.e Church) I didn’t place myself there – the Spirit did.
If the Spirit is a downpayment, in what legal system can one take back their downpayment because they changed their mind?
If the Spirit seals me until the day of redemption, then who exactly breaks that seal? Satan? Me? A seal spoke of security and ownership. A pretty poor symbol to use in Scripture to describe insecurity and abandonment.
And how can I be a child of God, adopted into the family. And then kicked out of the family? Even today (and also in the Roman Empire) you adopt a kid, that kid has all the legal rights as your begotten children. (Thus, the point in Romans where adoption is mentioned in connection to joint-heirs with Jesus)
So twitter about ‘enduring’ and ‘fruitbearing’ all you want. Share the anecdotal stories. But until you can show clear teaching on the Holy Spirit that negates the verses I DO find on the ministry of the Spirit in all the ways of security – I will continue to teach the above to the flock the Lord entrusts me with.
As to the quesiton, what about so-and-so. Either they never were saved (as Jesus mentions clearly would be the case for some), or they are horribly backslidden and will be indicative of those with no reward ‘yet though are saved, as if by fire’ (as Paul mentions clearly). I don’t know which. I don’t have to. That’s God’s business.
Andy,
No one here said they were doubters. I think we all feel perfectly secure – BUT… so did all the people who have fallen away. So, perhaps we are all sure, but perhaps not so sure.
Since you are still arounsd, how do you handle the warning passages to believers?
“If the Spirit is a downpayment, in what legal system can one take back their downpayment because they changed their mind?”
In real estate – if one party does not perform, the person who put down the deposit takes it back.Fully in compliance with all laws.
MLD, warning passages?
Going way back, when I first started believing in eternal security, I remember sitting in a certain Calvary Chapel which shall remain nameless, and he was talking about 1 Corinthians chapter 9, verse 27. Paul talks about being disqualified. And the pastor talked for about an hour on all the various ways it’s possible to lose salvation.
So I went back and read in that chapter, and Paul kept talking about running a race, and getting a prize. Going for a crown. Getting rewards.
It seems clear to me, that verse 27 is about being disqualified from getting a certain reward in heaven. It isn’t talking about salvation at all. Never was.
So many of the warning passages are talking about losing rewards, suffering temporal consequences, and that sort of thing. They’re not talking about losing salvation. But they are so often misapplied in that way.
The Scripture cannot contradict itself. If Jesus told me I have eternal life, He can’t later tell me I don’t. He can, however, tell me that my walk in Him is insufficient to receive rewards, positions in the kingdom, etc. Those are the main themes of the warning passages. Teaching already saved believers. Not warning unbelievers. They need the Gospel if they’re unbelievers.
AV,
You never addressed my point that started all of this – Jesus seems to have acknowledged that the person received the faith with great joy and participated – just like the bountiful fruit bearer – but just not for as long.
Jesus seems to be saying that he was in and then fell away – you cannot fall away from something you weren’t in.
have a comment?
as to the security passages, I agree you are secure in Christ.
i wish some of you could see what i see when i read this thread before calling it a night – it makes me sad . . . glad i didn’t wait till morning to check the thread, glad to leave it behind with the end of this day
God keep
Can I comment about the person receiving the faith with great joy and participated, and then fell away?
I believe it covers potential types of believers and unbelievers. This is just me. But I believe there are unbelievers that seem to be a part of things, and they get offended and go away. Well they never believed in the first place.
Then there are believers that really are saved, but things don’t go exactly as they expected, and they just disappear. They’re still saved.
The parables in those sections, I believe, speak of a muddled “Christendom”, good fish and bad fish swimming together, wheat and tares, etc. The saved are still saved no matter what. The unsaved so often show themselves unsaved with time. But since we can’t see all things the Lord sees, we sometimes can’t tell the difference between the two, and we get confused trying to classify everyone.
In real estate – if one party does not perform, the person who put down the deposit takes it back.Fully in compliance with all laws.
———————————————————
So it is up to us to ‘perform’ in order to keep the Holy Spirit from abandoning us.
Otherwise, He is out of there….
Yep, sounds exactly like what I read throughout the New Testament.
(As to your example, that is why there is a 3rd party escrow system in real estate. Both sides have ‘works’ to do for the transaction to go forward. That downpayment is not given to the seller, is it? So maybe you should examine the meaning of ‘earnest money’ in basically all other transactions, especially those of the 1st century – though you did find a clever loophole to answer my question. Touche)
AV,
“So it is up to us to ‘perform’ in order to keep the Holy Spirit from abandoning us.”
Good dodge. You asked a question I gave the answer. You said it couldn’t happen because of contract law – I just showed you example to be false. I didn’t say anything one way or the other about the Hoy spirit – you just used a bad example, that even a simple person like me could find fault.
3rd party escrow is a custom – nothing says I can’t sell my house, collect earnest money.
Andy,
You may have a point – up to a point. But what I refer to is not the parable, but Jesus’ explanation of the parable.I don’t think Jesus’ explanation to his own disciples is confusing at all.
Andy,
I sat for years in 2 large CC’s – both huge abiding faith churches – Harvest and CCCM.
Jesus’ explanation is not confusing. It is saying that some are around, and they get offended, and they’re gone.
And He follows up that explanation, with two more parables. Immediately after, He does the wheat and the tares, a “muddled Christendom” of believers and unbelievers. Later He does the good fish and bad fish, same theme.
That’s why I believe, the parable of the soils can cover, at least with the two middle seeds, believers and unbelievers depending on the circumstances. What is called the church is a very amazing organism. I’ve heard a lot of people over the years say, we’ll be shocked in heaven, who is there, and who isn’t. I think they might be right, at least a little bit.
So what did everyone think of the Time magazine cover?
Jesus seems to be saying that he was in and then fell away – you cannot fall away from something you weren’t in.
——————————————————-
So you make a conclusion (you must be “in” to fall away), based on an English word and a couple extra assumptions the text does not even say…all in the middle of a parable that is much larger than just a treatise on salvation (as Andy pointed out above).
Yeah, I don’t hesitate that when I stand your argument next to the bulk of all the Scripture as to work of the Holy Spirit for the believer that I cited, I say it is safe to assume you are interpreting wrong.
First, nowhere does the 2nd soil people bear fruit. You said above they did. Wrong. In fact, they have no root it says. Surely you know ‘believe’ is not always used of regenerating faith.
Second, fall away in Luke is a word usually translated depart. Same Greek word.
Now, are you telling me you haven’t met a lot of people who had an emotional reaction to the Bible and the things of church (received the word with joy), usually because their life is really screwed up, who hang around for a few weeks or so and then depart to try the next thing?
I have no problem saying that such a person is likely not saved. Nor do I have a problem saying the text does not HAVE to teach that such a 2nd soil person was definitely baptized into the Body of Christ by the Spirit, sealed, given the earnest, and indwelt by the Spirit.
As to my so-called ‘dodge’ – you can be deliberately obtuse on what the 1st century understood as to a downpayment (and what we all understand it to mean as well). I gave you your props for your real estate exception, but all your exception does is speak to a co-operating of salvation – which you then rightfully deny as accurate to the gospel.
The downpayment means in almost every sense, I am serious about taking this thing home with me, so here is my ‘serious money’ (my earnest) until I come back.
Time mag cover …. what did I think?
I am glad I will not live to see where this culture descends in another 40 years…that was sick
AV,
Nowhere did I say that the seed produced fruit – in fact way up early I made the point of no fruit. I don’t believe the guy is saved any longer. What i did say was that he was in the exact same situation as the bountiful fruit bearer up to a point – but he quit the faith before he could produce fruit.
What do you think Jesus meant when he said “but endures for a while,” – endures doing what – unbelief? I don’t think so – I think Jesus is clear the guy was in the faith for a short while and then, to use you Lukan meaning, departs from the faith.
But hey, we are not the first to disagree on this point and I am sure will not be the last.
I think we may have lost sight of the original context of this conversation – the woman pastor who is now an atheist. My original comment (way up at #69 was
“I think the woman is a classic case of one who through years of neglecting her faith, refusing the good gifts God gives us to sustain our faith (word & sacrament), just let her faith wither and die.
Or as Chuck Smith would say (and I agree) “she did not stay under the spout where the glory comes out”.
I still thinks this beats saying “No, she was never a Christian” or “No, she cannot leave the faith, therefore she is still a Christian.
I am sure that this woman would state that her spirit and the Holy Spirit testified to each other for years. God gave us word and sacrament to sustain this faith, because this situation is real – this woman did not partake in what was freely given.
I think we may have lost sight of the original context of this conversation – the woman pastor who is now an atheist….I still thinks this beats saying “No, she was never a Christian
——————————————————-
Well, I think she was preaching in a denomination that considers the deity of Jesus and His physical resurrection as optional.
And SOMEBODY will one day appear before the Lord, shocked that they are not saved, and be told I NEVER knew you. Why not this woman as one such example?
To repeat – I try not to base theology on anecdotes but on the teachings of Scripture. And I start with the clearest teachings and work back from there to things like sub-details in part of a part of a parable.
As an aside, do you concede that your insistence that a baby baptized is at that point born again, might color your view as to the possibility of one departing from the faith?
re: #184 – i came across a couple items regarding women’s exploitation of their bodies (there’s probably a better term) on the CNN web-site yesterday – two beautifully groomed and painted women, sweet spoken with a facade of guilelessness – they made me sad and they brought to mind one of those horror movies where the skin peels back to reveal something grotesque . . . i’m not referring to what they were doing, but where they were – Hugh Hefner must be very pleased with what he’s contributed to our “enjoyment” . . . and some pastors who’ve stepped up to declare, “wait, wait, that’s our turf and i’m here to explain it to you!” haven’t done much better.”
last night i watched the movie “Ike,” filmed during our nation’s fascination with the “greatest generation” . . . it probably was our greatest generation, full of ideals and promise of better things – it’s gone now
maybe hell will resemble Omaha Beach June 6, 1944
AV,
You and centy both brought up the example of people being surprised when they are not allowed into heaven.
As I told centy, this is not the issue, these people no longer claim Christ, no longer believe in heaven nor still stake a claim – but may be rassled in by the Holy Spirit.
About the baby baptism – hadn’t thought about it. Although not stated as a Lutheran would state it, because Lutherans hold that departing the faith is very difficult and probably rare – I think I have pretty much always believed in abiding faith as was the main teaching in CCs in the 80s.
AV, i am grateful for your intelligent and academic rightly dividing the Word of Truth on the subject of one’s declarations of faith – i hope i’m not alone in benefiting from what you’ve patiently presented here
FWIW, sometimes i think its those smug, baptized babies that give Christianity a bad name
actually and honestly, it probably is true that there are many within all our church families who assume they’re getting into heaven as God’s grandchildren – dunno, tho
for the record i can conceive of one looking back to their parents’ presentation of them to the Lord for infant baptism with understanding and claim that act of obedience as their own . . . there’s more to my thinking on this . . . guess it’s time to start another book . . . but not here
I am sure that this woman would state that her spirit and the Holy Spirit testified to each other for years
——————————————
I am responding to YOUR point right here. If she died back THEN, while preaching.
Yeah, NOW the fact of her lack of regeneration is showing itself, so she won’t be surprised and receive those words from Jesus NOW if she dies.
But you brought up the idea that this woman thought she was saved for a time. Big deal. Jesus said a lot of people would be like that.
As John wrote “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but [they went out] that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One…”
John describes this woman perfectly, and contrasts with the true believers who have the Holy Spirit.
Which has been my consistent point throughout…..
EM @190 – Thank you for your kind words.
Something about that “abide in me and I will abide in you” and “you cannot bear fruit unless you abide in me”
Seems to alow for “if you don’t abide in me, I won’t abide in you.”
.
AV,
No what I was pointing out was when you said that your spirit and the Holy Spirit testified to each other – I just asked what is the case if theis woman made the same claim for her 20 yrs of faith life? This is what happens when someone’s own experience is the test of salvation.
AV said:
“As John wrote “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but [they went out] that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One…”
John describes this woman perfectly, and contrasts with the true believers who have the Holy Spirit.
Which has been my consistent point throughout…..”
Yes!!!!! Thank you!!! ( How blessed your congregation must be!!! )
John was speaking of particular individuals – not all throughout history.
Look, we both agree about the woman, that she has departed. I claim that she actually departed from something she had and had participated in – you claim that she departed from…
Gotta run to Mother’s Day events
I just asked what is the case if theis woman made the same claim for her 20 yrs of faith life? This is what happens when someone’s own experience is the test of salvation.
——————————————————-
Amazing. Because you are the one advertising the need for your experiences (staying under the spout) to be pointed to if asked about the assurance of your salvation.
I’m the one pointing to Scripture and the finished work of Christ, and what it means to be born from the Spirit.
As to this atheist woman. You have absolutely no idea if she sincerely, earnestly sought God – examined herself to see if she was in the faith. You assume stuff because you have no argument without it. Just because she was in ministry?
Here is yet another of my bottom lines – and this one is about the character of God.
Jesus said if you seek Him, you will find Him. The Holy Spirit (being God) is no different in that regard. Nor is the Father. One God, as you know.
I do not for a moment believe that if anyone who professes faith in the gospel, and then truly, sincerely, openly throws himself or herself before God, crying out:
“Lord, am I saved? Am I trusting you? I want to be your child! I know I am a sinner, and I want to please you, though I fail again and again. But I know you died and rose for me. I believe! Lord, help my unbelief! Forgive me of my sins. Give me assurance I am your child! Help me to walk in your ways, to live for you – no matter what others say or think. No matter the personal cost to me. I just want to follow you, Lord. I love you”
I do not think a loving Father would ignore such a prayer. And if the person was not saved before they got on their face before God in this manner – they certainly are saved when they get up.
God knows our hearts. He knows faith.
And I bet all the true Christians here can say “Amen” to the idea expressed in that sample prayer I write. Some even to the very words.
Thanks Nonnie @196.
(A final point to MLD and all. I’m not writing a systematic theology, lest anyone object to my point about ‘seeking Jesus’ – I recognize that the seeking is prompted by a work of God on our hearts and does not arise 100% from our depravity. The Spirit convicts, draws)
With that…I have to run. Peace. Have a good Saturday.
MLD, you are correct, “experience” is not the most definitive term – but i’d never say that i have experienced life and i prefer death (well, there’ve been moments . . .) i have entered into a new life in Christ and i cannot get out – it’s not a vicarious experience, it is a state of affairs – have i experienced life in Christ? yes . . .
off to study some more on the brain . . . i think our souls are in there somewhere – using its fabulous design – dunno
At AV’s 198 …..Amen!!!
That is what I was trying to say waaaay up there in the first few posts. You said it so well.
Thank you.
I know that we have beat this one to death, so I apologize.
Your prayer above is to the point Xenia and I were trying to make yesterday. we asked “what about the people who did that prayer in all sincerity – who you say are “saved” – who after 20 years doing and believing fervently all the things you suggest, who we know today have walked away from the faith, curse the God of the Bible and teach others to do the same.
I am sure that this woman, Dan Barker, Bart Ehrman and a host of others would tell you that at one point, they were that person on their knees fervently praying that prayer.
If you want to tell me they are still saved, I will have to accept your answer – but to say that they were never saved is a judgement you can’t make.
I linked to the Teresa MacBain story, thinking not only it would be an item of interest to you the readers, but also because of the phenomenon of people who were Christians, or professed to be Christians, walking away from Christianity.
The part early on about MacBain apologizing for being a ‘hater’ was the most uncomfortable part of the story for me, personally. I wonder how much that was from her heart and how much of it was peer pressure, or trying to find a way to break the ice with a group of people she may not have been sure would accept her to any degree (much less give her a standing ovation).
I am not writing her off as forever lost to Jesus. I do not know what is in her heart and mind; none of us do. I hope that as I am exposed to ideas and beliefs that challenge my faith I do not do what she did and reject it. I definitely hope I don’t follow after the New Atheists and in the footsteps of men like Dan Barker, who seem to have exchanged one religion (Christianity) for another (freethought).
MLD, I think I have been clear that salvation is the Lord’s business. I think I have made clear that she could still be saved and horribly backslidden, or she never was saved – but I reject as not supported by the bulk of the clearer passages of Scripture, the idea she was once indwelt, sealed by the Spirit and placed into the Body of Christ, only to have the Spirit depart from her…which is what MUST happen Biblically if she was once saved and is not now.
One thing not noted is that the hardest warning passages of all the Bible would include that loss of salvation is a one-time thing. That you can’t get saved ‘again’, which really puts a new spin on it, doesn’t it. Because all those people you mention are as good as damned right now, aren’t they. No hope, no matter how sincerely they turn back – because they CAN’T repent.
If by your judgement they were saved and are now lost, then that’s it.
If those warning passages are warning about loss of salvation for one born again….(which I say they are not and you can listen to my Hebrews messages on that score)
Now, certainly you aren’t going to argue FOR warning passages in Scripture, but then reinterpret those Hebrews verses to allow for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th shot at heaven, right?
The Holy Spirit would be bouncing around like that old video game ‘Pong’
MLD referenced Dan Barker earlier.
I always thought that when and if I began to look closely at another religion (note that I say AT, not INTO), to see what it teaches, what its adherents believe, and how its adherents view the world around them, it would be Islam or Judaism, or Buddhism.
Freethought – the philosophy espoused by people like Barker – never came to mind.
But in the limited reading of, and listening to, these folks I definitely thought that this wasn’t a scientific, religion free point of view; but rather, another religion entirely, with its own god(s).
AV, would you be open to some interpretation that would allow for a person to go in and out of a “state of grace”, without needing the second salvation experience that you see as ruled out by scripture?
That would fit more with the reality so many of us have observed in people over the years.
Well I see this thread descended into a discussion of eternal security after all…. maybe I will toss in a couple of thoughts…
I need to go and read the whole matter but I will share a mite.
1. A believer is always secure it is the unbeliever that has no security.
2. The issue as I understand it is not one of sinning your way back into damnation but renouncing faith… becoming an unbeliever.
3. The passage of Hebrews about not being able to come back if you defect seems to me to be about the fact that if you renounce faith in Christ that is if you deny Him as the savior there is simply no other salvation… you have renounced and denied the only sacrifice for sin. The open question is whether one could recover faith in the one true savior.
4. As for the Holy Spirit leaving you … any spirit can leave you why not the Holy Spirit. If a demon can be cast out why cannot the Holy Spirit be invited to leave. We grieve him, quench him, and otherwise offend him. Why could we not expel him?
5. I think not only that a believer can disbelieve but that many ‘false brethren’ who were never actually regenerate can fall away … but there would be no reason to fear someone falling away from a religion that was not a saving faith… that would actually be a good thing and a door to salvation.
6. For me the warnings and if statements and constant calls to endure and persevere became too voluminous to deny…
and then there are the growing testimonies… of those leaving
I am currently reading a book by the sister of one of my heroes and dear brothers … Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winell is a handbook for denouncing your religion. She is the sister of Rolland Baker of Iris Ministry. Just getting started.
All of that said I never lack for security … the witness of the Spirit is the only real security not a string of verses … security is an inward work of God not merely a construct of bible verses. Without the personal witness of God … person to person… no one can live in the kind of security that brings rest.
Gotta go preach…
my 2cents i guess,
there is only Eternal Security in Christ Jesus our Lord. He said to Abide or remain in order to stay connected to the vine and not be cut off, so I want to abide or remain In Christ. When He said or warned us remain, it assumes that people who are connected (for no one can remain or abide somewhere they are not already) are able to wander off and eventually become disconnected by either their own rejection of Him or by His cutting off of them.
I do not live in fear or insecurity because of this, but it warns me to stay close to the Saviour. And in His warning I see a love and compassion in Jesus that wants me to continue with In/With Him in relationship and security.
There is no security outside of Jesus.
Also it seems to me that the human soul is complex – sometimes in the unwinding of the twists in one’s psyche that one encounters after coming to faith, what is actually forward progress on the inside can be expressed quite erratically in the externally visible behavior.
Faith is a personal love relationship – and we all know the path to initimacy is tortuous (marked by twists and turns and bends – not to be confused with “torturous”, a very different term, but one that certainly applies to episodes in most love relationships).
So when I see someone “backsliding” (one can backslide into sin, or into hyperreligious behavior as we all know) or “sidetracking” I try to believe that in the depths of their spirit there is an ember of personal love for Him that is momentarily too weak to exert itself into the viewable behavior.
it seems to me we are hung up on how we envision “born again” . . .
are we (some of us) born again or is it just a new attitude born in us? one that God finds acceptable? one which we are enabled to walk **in** for a time and which we may later rethink and walk away **from**?
a seed germinates, but doesn’t root, doesn’t become grounded in good soil . . . what is that? was that seed “born?” . . . FWIW, i don’t think so
how far can the parables stretch? only as far as they all agree, perhaps . . . i’m betting that if we could all drop our pet (probably, there’s a better word) theologies, get our terminology in agreement (unlikely) we’d have solid consensus
but it does seem that we all agree that only God, Himself, knows beyond doubt who is and who isn’t . . . and i’ve gained from this thread – in your debt PHxP, thank you
Dansk, “Also it seems to me that the human soul is complex ” “complex” and hard to define, eh?
i’m way over my head reading a book “Free Will and the Science of the Brain,” fascinated, not only by what the brain consists of, but by the tests possible today . . . it seems that the scientists keep chasing this thing that they can’t locate . . . kind of like defining gravity, they know it’s there, but . . . could be the soul? dunno
dansk
exuse me for saying, but i have no idea what you just said let alone how to interpret. could you help me out by clarifying your thoughts a bit?
thx
MIC, I will try.
What I am saying is that true spiritual progress is hard to measure.
Certainly it is related to stopping drugs and drinking, attending church, sharing Christ with others, reading the Bible.
But it is not those things. Those are “leaves” not “fruit”.
Fruit (in this metaphor – certainly the scripture uses it in others) is a very distinctly personal love for Him and His people, expressed in myriad ways. It is a deep inner invisible transformation that is not always easy to assess based on external behavior.
When “Ralph” stops going to church, who is to say he is loving less? I say, maybe not. I do not know his heart. Would I like to see him in church? Yes, but that would still be “leaves”.
I hope I love Him more than ever. I hope I love His people more than ever.
There are many self-help groups and belief systems that can and will change your life.
But only Christianity teaches us to love Him, and to love others in the healthy fashion that He ordains.
So if we debate whether someone is saved or unsaved, or how “spiritual” or “mature” or “virtuous” they are, there needs to be some humility on our part, because whatever we see on the outside, we do not (without revelation) have a window into that person’s soul. We may need to make hard decisions about whom we associate with based on external behavior, but that is different.
And we can disagree on who is saved, unsaved, sanctified, secure, or insecure, but hopefully we can all agree on this: We want every person in our lives to love the Lord every day, and obey and trust Him. We could disagree on the mechanism and the organization and the words to be used, but we all agree that God loves that person, and we each want, in a Spirit-led manner, to be a redemptive influence in that person’s life.
If that causes me to waste some love on some unsaveable, unforgiveable reprobate, if there is one, I will have to take that chance.
One day the light will shine and reveal who loved Him and who did not, and there will be some surprises.
I have a hard time understanding when and why it would ever be my concern to make a definitive call on someone else’s salvation.
If someone is living for the world, flesh, and devil – am I going to want him/her serving in the church? Am I going to recommend that person for a Christian school or ministry if asked? Am I going to encourage another to go ahead and marry that person?
Backslidden and saved, or still unsaved, bottom line is “Come back when you show fruits of repentance.”
I have met people who agonize over loss of salvation, and I think that is tragic, because they of all people still believe and very much want their relationship with the Lord to be solid. But they’ve heard a sermon by someone they like and get freaked.
I also regularly preach to anyone trusting in their baptism, their altar call, or some religious formality in their past as the evidence of salvation is a huge mistake, and what matters is their relationship with the Lord. Knowing Him personally.
I never debate whether someone is saved or unsaved, I just take people at their word.
1.) If someone tells me they trust in Jesus for their hope, I believe them – no questions asked.
2.) If someone tells me that they used to trust in Jesus for their hope, but they no longer do, I believe them – no questions asked.
Now if I am talking with #1, I may ask what they do to keep their trust strong and if I am talking to #2 I may ask them if they would like to talk about a return ticket – but I would never question #1 and say, “no you’re not – prove it.” or to #2 say “I think you are still saved, but you are just confused.”