Linkathon 5/2
Sunday I watched Holy Rollers, a documentary on a team of blackjack card-counters most notable for being Christians (though one non-Christian was brought in for a time).
Brian Dedmon at Hollywood Jesus was very critical of the documentary. The comments field is notable for comments from the director Bryan Storkel and from two of the team’s members – Michael Foster and Benjamin Ady. A feature on the movie can be found here, and an interview with team member David Drury here.
My mini-review: I thought it was pretty good – better than I anticipated, actually – and well worth one’s while. A few points that I think the documentary raises are:
- not only is card-counting an acceptable occupation for a Christian, but what exactly passes the test (and doesn’t pass the test)?
- one team member talks about living life “in the gray”. What does that really mean? Does not living with an everything-is-black-or-white mentality mean one is not thinking properly as a Christian?
- Ady was the only team member who was a non-Christian. This became an issue with some members – one of whom claims that the Holy Spirit told him Ady was stealing from the team. Aside from the issue of bringing a non-Christian into a Christian endeavor, what about how Ady was treated? Is “the Lord told me” a sufficient reason to bring such a charge against anyone, especially for those of us who grew up in/around Charismatic environments and can tell stories about people who claimed “the Spirit says” while coming across as “this is what I want” or “I’m weird”?
More links:
- Andy Stanley said what?
- “The megachurches are once again on the leading edge of these questions, but they are not alone. The urgency to reach people with the Gospel can, if the church is not faithful and watchful, tempt us to subvert the Gospel by redefining its terms. We are not honest if we do not admit that the current cultural context raises the cost of declaring the Gospel on its own terms.“
- “Better minds than I have already done that and will continue to do that, but if I could pinpoint one root cause it would be this: Evangelicals aren’t preaching the Bible. They are putting Bible verses into their preaching. And there is a difference.“
- “I will try my best to avoid using the adjective “Biblical” to describe what I think “the Bible teaches.” The use of this word as a prescriptive adjective to promote positions and convictions is rampant among Christians. The problem is, it usually obscures more than it enlightens, hurts rather than helps, and stops discussion dead in its tracks rather than promoting good conversation.“
- “Just when you think that the Tim Tebow story can’t get any more bizarre, along comes internet “dating” website Ashley Madison (“Life is short. Have an Affair”) to offer a $1 million bounty on the New York Jets’ quarterback.“
- “Good book reviews not only summarize a book but they engage the issues themselves, educating and challenging readers to think more deeply, thereby advancing the discussion. In other words, a good book review should not only teach you what the book under review says, but should teach you something about the topic under consideration. Two new reviews of Peter Enns’s The Evolution of Adam: What the Bible Does and Doesn’t Say about Human Origins (Brazos, 2012) are good examples of what I have in mind. “
- ” Genesis for Normal People is written in an informal voice for Christians who have little if any formal training in biblical studies. It will rock the world for some because it presents the purpose and form of the OT in general and Genesis in particular from a point of view that is distinctly different from the approach the average Christian is familiar with. But this is an important lesson.“
- “This whole idea of “masculine Christianity” that some among the neo-Reformed and others are promoting these days is so off-base I can’t believe anyone falls for it. Most of our concepts of “masculinity” and “femininity” are time-bound social and cultural constructs and have nothing to do with being “biblical” (there is that terribly misused word again) or representing a vital and rigorous faith.“
- “So, is our rejection of effeminate worship “mean-spirited” toward women? Not a bit of it. Does it show contempt for the abilities of women who have accepted the role God has assigned to them? Again, no. I write as a man in a family crammed full of high-performance women, and would mildly suggest that if anybody really wants to attack me on this front, a little background research might be helpful to them.“
- “I hear them (my friends) say “women are a weaker sex” in public settings and hush their wives (with a wink and a nod) when they are trying to contribute to conversations. There are pathological issues being impressed upon an entire generation of young men that will end in the abuse of many women.“
- “This isn’t a sin–this depression. This isn’t a flaw in your design or a mistake. Depression is an illness. It is rampant, especially among women and if ever there were something that needs to be brought to the Light, it is this.“
- “Doing, working, accomplishing, by themselves, are not indicators that you love God. All of us have a tendency that brings with it unique strengths and some treacherous weaknesses. We must acknowledge our own bent, and we must turn to one another and confess that we need to grow and learn from the strengths of others.“
- ‘“The Man Up Campaign, says Lecrae, addresses father absence by telling “young African American males that you’re immediately an example for other African American males in the community at large.”‘
- Michael Patton’s updated, helpful “beginner’s guide” to Christianity.
- “…why do people ignore the commentary of a wise economist and only start listening when Bono says the same thing? Why does a dedicated human rights activist struggle to get a hearing but George Clooney immediately attracts the attention of the world’s press?“
- “Can a transcendent and personal God really act in the universe? and Can science help us answer this question? The answers are not what one might expect – and call into question some of the assumptions that motivate the search for Intelligent Design.“
- “The purpose of this post is to define Arminian soteriology.“
- “J. R. Daniel Kirk (assistant professor of New Testament at Fuller Seminary) … was none too happy with Smith for advancing a theological approach to the science/faith issue that he felt simply circumvents the difficult and unavoidable historical challenges that beset the Bible’s presentation of human origins.“
- “But what struck me about this conference experience was that it was nearly 8000 people whom I did not personally know, and yet still I felt this strange sense of Holy Spirit-indwelt, Word-driven unity.“
- “I picked up these interesting comments from an ELCA pastor who was, and still is, a very admiring student of the theology of Gehard Forde, whose influence, in my opinion, has gained far to great a toehold in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod, and it may well be that this attitude explains why we see some Lutheran sermons going out of their way to avoid any kind of parenesis.“
- “No one is against the Gospel, but the vast majority of Christians continue to have problems with the Neo-Puritan equation of Gospel with the middle three letters of the TULIP acrostic: unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace. They are also making a renewed effort for the Two Kingdom model of the church. In this model there are more opportunities for drawing a heavier line between the church and the world and fewer opportunities to confuse the two.“
- “In the context of conservative Protestantism, there has often been an anti-intellectual spirit that has ruled out of court, ab initio, critical thinking.“
- “So the question becomes whether Christians can embrace both Darwin and Christ with integrity, giving each his due without slighting the other. This is the real question underlying Darwinism’s presumed theological neutrality.“
- “To sum up, Darwinism and Christianity, even when generously construed, exhibit significant tensions. Are these tensions so serious that Darwinism may rightly be regarded as not theologically neutral? I would say the tensions are indeed that serious. Such a conclusion, however, ultimately becomes a matter of personal judgment.“
Categories: Uncategorized
well can we see the doc. I’ve always wondered about card counting
by steve voigt on May 1, 2012 at 11:03 PM
Right now your options are to buy the DVD or buy/rent from iTunes. It supposedly is coming soon to Netflix.
by BrianD on May 1, 2012 at 11:20 PM
“especially for those of us who grew up in/around Charismatic environments and can tell stories about people who claimed “the Spirit says” while coming across as “this is what I want” or “I’m weird”?”
That is exactly the opposite of what should happen.
If God really speaks to people, it should hold THEM accountable (John 10:27-30).
As far as accusing someone of sin because of “thus saith the Lord” would be subject to all the stuff in Proverbs and I would think would require some evidence (like Achan in Joshua). Satan is the accuser, the Holy Spirit is the Comforter.
by jtk on May 2, 2012 at 6:02 AM
If you would’ve told me yesterday that I’d be interested in watching a film like that today, I’d have said “you’re crazy.”
But now, I’m interested……THE POWER OF THE LINK-A-THON!
by jtk on May 2, 2012 at 6:03 AM
#4 is the next article I wanted to write had I had the time.
We have taken two terms and turned then into weapons to slay each other…”biblical” and “Gospel”.
We usually use the word ‘biblical” to describe our positions in contrast to someone we want to be labeled “unbiblical”.
Thus, a George Bryson proclaims his “biblical” doctrines of grace as opposed to what he says are the “unbiblical” doctrines of Calvinism.
Nothing could be more dishonest or disingenuous …all orthodox Christians believe their doctrines are rooted in and are taken from Scripture.
In the links above you’ll also see all sorts of references to “the Gospel” without a definition of what part of the “good news’ they are actually addressing.
The gospel is the proclamation of the good news that God has come to save sinners and the process of recreating God’s good creation has begun…the kingdom has been inaugurated.
That good news is broad and touches so many things and issues that unless you define what part of it you are defending or promoting, you’re usually just blowing smoke out your hindquarters in the direction of someone you disagree with.
I wish I had time to expand on this, but alas, work beckons…
by Michael on May 2, 2012 at 6:47 AM
Shocked by the article on Andy Stanley. We have a ‘church’ culture which no longer values truth and Godliness/Holiness over a full building and bodies to plug-in to ‘ministry’ vacancies.
I will restrain my comments on why theology and praxis may have contributed to this state of affairs.(Pun definitely intended)
by michael in chandler on May 2, 2012 at 6:52 AM
Actually, maybe just one comment…
If we are touting ideas such as ’3 free sins’ or as that author expanded his own idea to ‘unlimited free sins’ (as if sin has no price/consequence to pay for us now or for Christ on the Cross 2000yrs ago) why would we be ‘shocked’ that people are calling themselves ‘believers’ in Christ, yet not only showing no evidence of a repentant life, but also living in open sin and expecting others to accept them anyways?
Theology matters and has consequence in people’s lives (not to mention Eternally)
I will get off the soap box now…
by michael in chandler on May 2, 2012 at 7:10 AM
mic in chandler,
You’ve obviously never read Steve’s book or you wouldn’t make that sort of statement. Brown has never and would never affirm what you wrote.
Period.
by Michael on May 2, 2012 at 7:17 AM
http://morethancoping.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/more-than-coping-for-four-years/
by BrianD on May 2, 2012 at 7:33 AM
Unfortunately michael, you’re wrong. I have read it and though I am not currently, due to our radio station going more ‘KLOVE’ than it used to be ‘teaching’ programs, I was at one time a long time listener and fan of KeyLife.
I wish you would stop assuming what I have and have not read and what do or do not know. It would make honest and graceful communication much easier.
Thx again
by michael in chandler on May 2, 2012 at 7:39 AM
If you read it you didn’t understand it…because Steve doesn’t dismiss the temporal implications of sin.
I highly recommend the book…the single most frequent comment I get in my email is thanks for introducing someone to Steve Brown.
I’m proud and honored to have done so for many.
by Michael on May 2, 2012 at 7:44 AM
Then mic in chandler, your understanding of what Brown is saying in his book is significantly different from mine. Perhaps your filters?
by Bill Kinnon on May 2, 2012 at 7:52 AM
One last comment and I will be done with the exchange,
Also in that hope for honest and graceful communication, please refrain from telling me what I did or did not understand. Can you really read my mind or heart?
Thx again for the opportunity
by michael in chandler on May 2, 2012 at 7:53 AM
Everybody is so touchy…
by Josh the Baptist on May 2, 2012 at 8:01 AM
mic,
“Honest and graceful” communication precludes misrepresenting someones doctrinal positions.
I have everything Brown has ever written, boxes of his tapes and CD’s and I distribute his teachings locally to people who for one reason or another find themselves “unchurched”.
I know what Steve teaches…and he has never and would never teach that there is no temporal consequence for sin.
He does teach that for the believer, it’s covered by the grace of God…and he teaches what that grace cost the Giver.
I’m off to work..
by Michael on May 2, 2012 at 8:08 AM
josh, (following meant to be funny…)
i’m not TOUCHY!! OK!? I feel no need WHATSOEVER to correct people who disagree with my opinion!! I am completely SECURE with others expressing theirs even if I DON’T HOLD IT too!!! (just kidding, really).
enjoy your day
by michael in chandler on May 2, 2012 at 8:11 AM
Andy Stanley’s story about the gay couple / divorce / fractured families is tragic in so many ways that he doesn’t even acknowledge. The gay affirmation is only the tip of that ugly iceberg.
by Josh the Baptist on May 2, 2012 at 8:19 AM
Ok, so hubby and I watched the film and we have booked tickets to Vegas. Do you think it’s ok if I use a calculator?
Seriously….the film was fascinating and disturbing. I wouldn’t want one of those guys to be my pastor……priorities seemed a bit messy. However, Hubby and I had a discussion as to the question of card counting to “take money” (as they put it) from a casino was any different than a Christian investing money in the stock market and gambling on it going up. Just wondering?????
by Nonnie on May 2, 2012 at 8:23 AM
And MIC…
What you have described about Steve Brown’s book is NOT what I got out of it.
by Nonnie on May 2, 2012 at 8:25 AM
bill and nonnie,
…and i’m ok that you didn’t see it the same way as i did. thanks for your graceful and honest replies, but i’m done on this line of conversation. i hope you will understand.
thx again
by michael in chandler on May 2, 2012 at 8:30 AM
#43 in Loose Ends Dread suggested and provided the link to a movie titled “God On Trial.” Jews in Auschwitz place God on trial for the evils the Jews are experiencing. Language is coarse but the film was engrossing. It brought up a lot of personal stuff for me as my mother is a Nazi survivor. The idea of God breaking His covenant with the Jews is addressed as well as free will among other things. Disturbing and challenging.
by Erunner on May 2, 2012 at 8:45 AM
I’m strangely reminded of how very important it is to properly socialize my new puppy so that he plays well with others.
by Nomans on May 2, 2012 at 8:50 AM
Hahaha
He-larious Nomans.
by Josh the Baptist on May 2, 2012 at 8:53 AM
I dropped this in the Open Blogging thread late Sunday, not knowing Brian was doing this link as well. It goes better here – forgive the double post for those who already read it:
————————————————-
Brian asked me to comment.
I spent an evening in Vegas driving through on my way back to college. My friend and I met the parents of a girl from school (she was already back on campus) and they took us out to dinner and showed us a couple sights. I was 19. It was there my hosts introduced me to blackjack, where they left said their goodbyes after dinner and where I proceeded to play until 6 AM, despite facing a 12 hour drive the next day. I was hooked.
Sometime afterwards, I discovered a book, Million Dollar BlackJack, by the late Ken Euston. It was the first time I learned that blackjack could be beat, and I realized my aptitude for math, and aptitude for holding my drinks (the act), made this possible for me. I began to learn more off and on in college, but upon graduating I went fully committed.
While working my job, I practiced on weeknights about 3 hours a night – loud music, distractions, and just counting down decks, running through matrix numbers, and dealing deck after deck after deck in mock play. Played a few times a year in Vegas.
I had every intention of making this my career. What I lacked was bankroll (and I did not know anyone on a team). This limited my betting, but I also learned from some mistakes over the next four years too. To give you an idea of the numbers involved:
A player varying his bets 4-1, needs a 100X bankroll based on largest bet to only have a 5% element of ruin. So betting $5-$20 required $2000 in pocket and still there was a 5% chance of losing your $2000 before your doubled your $2000. I only had $500, but I had to play at least $5 minimum tables to avoid shoes. By the way, the hourly rate on such low wages averaged less than minimum wage.
I had EVERY intention of making this my career once I had the bankroll (and this was before all the Indian casinos, so basically for me it was Vegas trips). Of course, I would need to bet larger spreads, maybe $25-$100 or larger, meaning I would need quite a bankroll. But it was the plan, and the dream.
All the backstory is to show I know this world and those who inhabit it.
When I got saved, this was one of the first things I wrestled with God about. Like the people BrianD links to, I had a skill that could make money – that I had invested countless hundreds of hours in developing. Should it still be my career? A profitable hobby? Give all my profits to missions?
All I can say is what the Lord spoke to me about and that is simply this. And yes, it was the Lord as this was a matter of much prayer and one of those times it sounds like you are hearing Him from Sinai for the first time. It had nothing to do with a sin of “gambling” – I wasn’t “gambling” I was working. I was churning it out, no different than the dealer earning his paycheck. The dealer follows rules that give the house the edge over most everyone, and I followed rules that gave me the edge over the house. (It’s not like poker, where, no matter how skilled, an element of luck exists even over the longterm)
He showed me every dollar I won was not coming from this monolithic ‘casino’ but from the person sitting next to me (or others at that casino). Men and women addicts selling every asset, including themselves, to get their fix. That is where every dollar of the casino’s money was coming from, and I would be encouraging that world. It was blood money I was winning.
I stopped – cold. And have not played a hand since. And there have been temptations to do so, especially once my business career took off a few years later.
So that’s my testimony on the subject. The Lord’s will for AV. Maybe coming to the “game” already saved is different than my path, as to the conviction involved, but I know what the Lord’s will is for me.
And yes, it is a mathematical skill – not gambling really in any way.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 9:19 AM
The Las Vegas world, with its gambling, glitz and prostitution, is pure evil. This should be obvious to everyone. The only reason a Christian should visit this place is for the purpose of evangelization.
by Xenia on May 2, 2012 at 9:34 AM
I will address Brian’s 3 questions.
1) As to acceptable occupation. The Bible speaks of the greater law of love, and the importance of not causing a weaker brother to stumble. So even if the argument is made that this is an acceptable occupation for a Christian, there is no argument that can be made that it should be promoted and popularized in such a way. I would also add that as a former card counter, it is VERY hard to play good enough to have a consistent advantage over the house, and even harder, once one has achieved that level, to be allowed to continue to play. The best thing ever for Vegas was the knowledge that blackjack could be beaten, and so millions have thought they were good enough to do so only to lose their shirts. Thus, the motivation is get rich easily, and the excitement compared to a regular job – hardly primary motivations for Christian vocation. So I guarantee many Christians will lose a lot of money thinking they can beat the house.
2) As to “life in the gray” – I believe the Bible speaks of “black and white” and then freedom, not “gray” per se. I’m sure the reason they use the term is because the casinos are so hypocritical and dishonest that in order to continue to play one must bear false witness continually. Pretend to be drunk, wear disguises. I have a hard time finding Biblical support for any occupation not designed to save human lives (i.e. undercover cop)that REQUIRES falsehood for its existence.
3) Seems the Bible is clear about not being unequally yoked. Why on earth would they want an unbeliever to join their Christian team, if not simply the motivation of greed because he was a good player and could make them more money. Again, hardly a Christian motivation for proper business dealings.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 10:29 AM
BrianD, every now and then your linkathons make it difficult to get my chores done
my one and only visit to Las Vegas was around 1950, i was a young, unsaved teenager – we went to dinner to hear the Mills Bros (loved them ever since) – our table was on the upper level and looked out over the floor – i did a lot of people watching with my young, judgmental eyes – i found the scene a pathetic gathering of unhappy adults trying to look cool . . . evil is exactly what was on display . . . now i’m sure there were many well adjusted, perhaps sophisticated, folk in the room but the majority were a data point for my insecure, young life in transition . . . made a few trips to Santa Anita, however, and i enjoyed them
thank you Brian for providing my afternoon’s reading material – i’ll be back
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 10:30 AM
“The Las Vegas world… is pure evil”
I am making a couple exceptions: the amazing architecture and presentation of the fountains and initial entrance space of The Bellagio, and the entirety of the beautiful Venetian, where you can spend a full day exploring the shops and businesses in air conditioned comfort.
If you do nothing else other than visit those locations, you’ll be better for it because you can actually FORGET that you’re in Las Vegas, a town I found to be mostly vacuous and a money/soul suck.
by ( |o )====::: on May 2, 2012 at 12:17 PM
TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION
Mars Hill disinvites a “Holy Roller” because of his unsubmissive wife:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/03/15/mars-hill-disinvites-former-card-counting-christian
http://twitter.com/#!/StuffCCLikes/statuses/180421037622697985
by NotReallyLaughing on May 2, 2012 at 12:36 PM
Lutherans are not very big on “house rules” – we don’t call activities that can lead to sin, sin.
Drunkenness is sinful, but the actual activity that leads up to it (drinking) is not. The same thing with dancing – I had a friend who was Church of Christ and they couldn’t dance because it might stir up lust.
Going to Vegas is just another form of entertainment. I am sure if you looked hard enough, there is just as much prostitution in Hawaii as there is in Vegas – just not as in the open – but no one advocates not going to Hawaii.
What is the difference between spending a couple hundred dollars on the crap table vs $200 on baseball tickets. My boss bought me Dodgers tickets for my birthday a couple of weeks ago – they were $125 each. I sat with a couple hundred people who were guzzling beer all day.
Look at it this way, I work long hard frustrating days that could cause me to cuss at anytime – do I become a slacker so that I avoid potential sin?
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 1:26 PM
hmmm – perhaps the Las Vegas of today, the city, is just like any other city . . . except that it wouldn’t exist without the evil that has fueled it . . . maybe that, too, is just like any other city . . . when it was nothing but those few classic old casinos it was a very weird, out in the middle of nowhere, desert show biz night spot surrounded by good places to dump bodies off . . . really . . . and ya know what? people flocked in from L.A. in cars without airconditioning – a whole lot farther than Palm Springs, but a way whole lot cheaper then
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 1:32 PM
What is the difference between spending a couple hundred dollars on the crap table vs $200 on baseball tickets
————————————————
The entertainment value is different. You enjoy the game despite the cost of your tickets, and would be more than happy to go to the game without having to pay for the tickets (as in fact you did).
Whereas the money you put in play in gambling is directly related to the entertainment you receive – the rush or whatever else it is you get. The chance for luck to strike and you walk away with a nice score – even if you recognize you are likely to lose and have mentally decided it is an amount you can justify.
That is why millions of people of all ages around the country on any given weekend are playing baseball (and softball) for free, and their friends and family are watching them for free – and all are having an entertaining time. Of course, to see the best in the world play, at the best venues in the world, one expects to have to pay for the privilege.
Yet you could not point me to one place in this whole country where people are gathered to play games of chance like blackjack without any money on the line. Even high school ‘casino nights’ usually have door prizes for the winners.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 1:49 PM
AV,
That just is not true. Many people spend gazillions on sporting events to get that high. Last year Jon Lovett got sued because he hadn’t paid his bill for his season tickets at Dodgers stadium – $300,000.
Most people I know go to Vegas for the “get away”, the shopping and the entertainment etc. The gambling is part of that entertainment. The fact that people hope to add winning to that experience is incidental.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 1:57 PM
Going to Vegas is just another form of entertainment.<<<
So much evil has been excused because "it's just entertainment."
by Xenia on May 2, 2012 at 2:00 PM
I was layed over in Reno weekend before last. I used Priceline.com and scored a really nice room at a casino resort for the weekend, $50 a night I might add. I need to get out of the truck sometimes.
Anyways, I put $5 in a machine, won $3 and cashed out. Had one beer in the lounge with my dinner and retreated to my room to enjoy the view of the Sierras, watch some t.v. and sleep.
I was never once tempted to seek out a prostitute, get drunk, or gamble.
I did overeat though. Which is probably not one of the 3 free sins
by Scott on May 2, 2012 at 2:07 PM
Xenia,
So are you saying it’s OK to go see Jimmy Buffet or Celine Dion, as long as it’s not in Las Vegas?
There is so much more to Las Vegas than just the strip. Many folks go there to retire because it is cheap, the weather is good and there are 100s of golf courses.
I used to be involved with a restaurant chain in Las Vegas along with several coffee bars – the people that worked for me were normal people not impacted by strip activities.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 2:10 PM
MLD – You are confusing two issues. Of course there are sports addicts. In fact, everything can probably be abused or taken out of a proper boundary. (By the way, there are also gambling addicts betting sports too)
That is not the point. We are not required to avoid everything that might be abused by someone out there. In fact, we can’t (food being one example – sex within marriage being a second).
If there were scores of places where people played blackjack, craps or roulette for free, just for the thrill of turning the cards, dice or wheel, then I would grant your point. There aren’t because there is no ‘thrill’ there, no entertainment, without money on the line.
And as an aside, my argument has nothing to do with Vegas. Back when I was card counting it was the only place to do so (other than flying to New Jersey and there they only had shoes I believe reading) and there was just starting to have a couple indian casinos pop up in Montana or somewhere.
Now, I am surrounded by casinos, bars, and places to score drugs – so unless I am going to move to Giligan’s Island, the geographic location is hardly the issue.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 2:28 PM
Many people spend gazillions on sporting events to get that high
—————————————–
MLD – Let me summarize it as I did before. Everyone of those people would love it if you gave them free tickets to their favorite teams. They are not getting that high off their favorite team because they paid money for the ticket.
Maybe that is clearer??
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 2:29 PM
“If there were scores of places where people played blackjack, craps or roulette for free, just for the thrill of turning the cards, dice or wheel, then I would grant your point. There aren’t because there is no ‘thrill’ there, no entertainment, without money on the line.”
You just described day traders.
But there are plenty of families that play board games “of chance” for the fun of it. May I suggest Monopoly, Uno and Yahtzee?
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 2:35 PM
“They are not getting that high off their favorite team because they paid money for the ticket.”
They get the high because they do buy the Sky Boxes and to be seen. If not, they would be sitting in the Uecker seats where I usually sit.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 2:38 PM
As a small aside, prostitution is as illegal in Vegas and Reno as it is in any other part of the country.
Nevada does allow prostitution in some rural counties, and is the only state to do so.
Second small aside – marriage is the 2nd largest business in Las Vegas (and maybe Nevada, can’t remember exactly how I heard this reported). Ahead of banking, housing, technology etc, only trailing casinos.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 2:43 PM
You just described day traders.
But there are plenty of families that play board games “of chance” for the fun of it. May I suggest Monopoly, Uno and Yahtzee?
They get the high because they do buy the Sky Boxes and to be seen. If not, they would be sitting in the Uecker seats where I usually sit.
————————————————————–
Talk about your non sequiturs.
Yeah, day trading is little more than gambling, has just about disappeared, and is not to be confused with longterm private investment in publicly traded corporations.
Yeah, families can play games that involve dice or other means of chance. They are a lot of fun, and not to be confused with the gambling subject at hand. I’m not arguing against Christians playing ‘go fish’ with their grandchildren, or that somehow playing cards are the ‘devil’s instruments” (Russian roulette is a game of chance too you know. You going to justify it? The issue is not ‘chance’)
As to luxury boxes, once more, if someone was handing them out for free, people would be more than happy to take them. I think it is safe to say the people who buy luxury boxes to be seen at the event are the least interested in the game most of the time. For starters, you can rarely see who is in a luxury box. I’ve been in a couple luxury boxes for corporate events and was just about the only one watching the game. Just the other day some guy sitting courtside at the Lakers playoff game was texting DURING the action and got hit in the face with a loose ball. You think the Kardashian sisters are sports addicts?
I don’t know why you can’t concede this simple point. Money is central to gambling being entertaining, and money is NOT central to baseball, movies, or opera being entertaining. Take money away from gambling games, and the entertainment disappears. Take money away from baseball, movies, and opera and you enjoy the night all the more because someone else paid for it!!
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 2:54 PM
I always thought card counting was against the rules, therefore, cheating, therefore a sin.
by Banker Boy on May 2, 2012 at 3:05 PM
So are you saying it’s OK to go see Jimmy Buffet or Celine Dion, as long as it’s not in Las Vegas?<<<
I am unfamiliar with the first person and only know that the 2nd person sang that Titantic song so I probably wouldn't cross the street to see either of them. I am not attracted to most forms of secular entertainment. Monterey's Farmer's Market has a great bluegrass band (local) that plays and I enjoy them. I love listening to my son play the piano. I love my church's choir. I have some Mozart CDs I enjoy. I sing to myself all day long. I don't really care for most popular entertainment because I don't find it to be very entertaining and little of it seems God-pleasing, IMO.
So Abraham's nephew, the righteous Lot, moves to Sodom and barely escapes with his life.
Remember Lot's wife.
by Xenia on May 2, 2012 at 3:06 PM
If there was no money involved in Las Vegas gambling, it would be just about as exciting as playing Old Maid with your grandchildren, I think.
If we have so much spare money that we can toss it away in Las Vegas them maybe a better use would be to give it to the poor instead.
by Xenia on May 2, 2012 at 3:10 PM
If there was no money involved in Las Vegas gambling, it would be just about as exciting as playing Old Maid with your grandchildren, I think.
—————————————-
As I’m sure you would agree, Xenia. The fun there is the playing with the grandchildren part – not the game itself.
@Banker Boy – If one were to smuggle in some sort of small computer (as has happened) then that is cheating. Counting is NOT illegal. Card counters just observe the cards played on the table and vary their own plays and bets accordingly, based on what is more likely to come up in the remaining cards to be dealt. You have to be very comfortable with figures and doing quick math problems in your head.
There is so much else though that has to be factored in (good table conditions etc), not to mention the skills to do all this quickly with 100% accuracy, that few can do so with a true edge over the house.
And that’s the thing. The casino offers a game that is super popular, largely because people know it can be beat and many think wrongly they can beat it – then when someone legally, skillfully uses the information available to their eyes, with nothing more than their brain, they are not allowed to play – or conditions are made so as to not have a chance.
And the pits have long memories. I was away from a casino for several months, returned and watched the boss walk behind the dealer, do something (probably a tap on the butt) and immediately that dealer shuffled every hand – making it impossible to play with an advantage. I asked if that was going to continue as long as I played, and she said ‘yep”
So I had to leave. And I was only betting 5-20 bucks a hand.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 3:37 PM
Is it just me, or, does it seem that AV kind of enjoys re-”counting” his old days at the table?
by Scott on May 2, 2012 at 3:41 PM
in the U.S. today, we are drowning in minutia – the average man (generic term) is shackled in some sort of a bungee cord web of gotchas and bureaucratic hoops – or so it seems to me . . . even Believers are stressed by circumstances and details over which we have no control and are not Kingdom oriented, so it is hard to make a case against diversions – a chance to escape what presses in on every side – or so it seems to me
that said, there is a question of when does a diversion become evil?
relaxation is one thing, but the moment we forget Christ, we are on the edge, are we not?
for me, shopping for the sake of browsing is very close to evil – it might not be for someone else . . . how is coming home with a bag full of cute kitsch and unneeded apparel any different than taking that money to a casino? dunno . . .
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM
If you took money out of grocery stores, they would close up. Get real, people do things for money – whether it be work to get money to play or earn money to go out and get more money.
If you took money out of my job, I would probably lose interest. Money is just an object we play with and we all try to get more of it. Whether it be for new cars, going out to get entertained or to put away in a college fund.
My point is, that the average Laker season ticket holder blows more money in a year than the average person who goes to Vegas on gambling. Many people go and do not gamble.at all.
BTW, AV, those people go to be seen by each other – they could care less if you or I see them.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM
Scott, your point is well taken. I believe the times I have mentioned this part of my past can be counted on one hand in almost 20 years of being a Christian.
I really don’t like talking about it, and have even felt conviction in doing so here.
However, I think my personal backstory, detailed explanations as to the difficulty of playing, and how even if one succeeds the scum that are the casinos will refuse you play….will hopefully keep some Christian who sees this movie, and gets fired up to try it, from destroying their lives.
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 3:52 PM
Banker Boy,
Using a physical method of counting is illegal in any gaming jurisdiction I know of. Mental acuity is not against the rules, nor can it hardly be a “sin”. A house may ban you if they see that you can count without physical methods, but this is because a casino is a private entity and can do whatever they want.
I have watched people count through double cut 5 deck shoes, and do it well. I had the ability to kick them out numerous times (as a table games surveillance expert for multiple casinos), but they were doing nothing wrong, so long as they were not using a physical/mechanical/collusion method. I would often shake the hand of proficient counters as security escorted them from the casino, and compliment them on their skills. If the house is not interested in needlessly losing money, after a while, we would build a profile to share with other casinos, and simply 86 them on good terms, meaning they had not broken a law, they were simply not allowed to play there anymore.
by Reuben on May 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM
AV beat me to it.
by Reuben on May 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM
Darn, Giambi just hit a 3 run walk off against my beloved Dodgers. I just lost 5 bucks to the guy in the cube behind me.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM
I could only listen to it happen on the radio, but I made a mad dash for my phone to post such info on your FB page. Just so you would know, of course.
by Reuben on May 2, 2012 at 4:05 PM
You got me again!
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 4:07 PM
Reading post #51, wondering if I just called Reuben, ‘scum’ in my @50??
by Another Voice on May 2, 2012 at 4:10 PM
AV, of course you did! But I knew who paid my bills for 12 years.
*edit*
I am glad I am not in that industry anymore.
by Reuben on May 2, 2012 at 4:14 PM
http://www.getreligion.org/2012/04/how-to-cover-a-complex-religion-story-101/
by BrianD on May 2, 2012 at 4:17 PM
going thru the links after mowing my lawn (what’s left of it after the rabbit and the cat)
#1 – makes it clear to me that we’ve got a problem . . . we’ve accomplished nothing for purity in the churches
#2 – Mohler isn’t against mega churches and i find that i’m not either – they create a community for those living in mega cities IMV – he addresses link #1, but doesn’t say much that every other good teacher hasn’t already tried to say . . . how can one be pro-active? are churches like casinos? can the ushers come up and say, “excuse me, are you two cohabiting?” if the response doesn’t line up with God’s Word, can they be escorted out? hmmm
#3 – like the observation on mis-use of Scripture – the real thing that i have against women pastors are that they have to go thru men to get there and that produces less than stellar examples of serious scholarship and qualification IMHO
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 4:44 PM
Michael: “…unless you define what part of it you are defending or promoting, you’re usually just blowing smoke out your hindquarters in the direction of someone you disagree with.
I wish I had time to expand on this, but alas, work beckons…”
This needs expanding?
by Captain Kevin on May 2, 2012 at 5:06 PM
#4 – somehow it is sad that we have to take issue with the word “bliblical” . . . how did concern and submission to our understanding of what the Bible teaches become a hammer or a wedge called ‘biblical?”
#5 – this is nothing new – an attempt at destroying the testimony or reputation of a Christian cutie of either gender has been a favorite sport down thru time and has included placing bets . . . this one’s a little high, but . . .
#6 – once named one of our German Shepherds “Brazo” – its Dutch breeder thought it was a stupid name . . . i still like it . . . i bookmarked James K A Smith’s review – a chance to exercise my mind a bit
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 5:15 PM
#7 – “We fail to convince because we do not understand our story and we do not teach or preach the whole story.” dear God, help us to hear those words
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 5:24 PM
#7 – asks “Do you think Enns and Byas and I are right – that we have tended to teach and view the Bible as a collection of short, stand-alone stories? If so, is this a problem?”
nope, i don’t think Enns and Byas are infallibly right, but he can’t have been posing that question to us pew sitters, could he?
taken advantage of the quiet here during the dinner hour long enough now . . .
by Em on May 2, 2012 at 5:40 PM
I think Luther nailed it down here;
“”When you are baptized, partake of Holy Communion, receive the absolution, or listen to a sermon, heaven is open, and we hear the voice of the Heavenly Father; all these works descend upon us from the open heaven above us. God converses with us, provides for us; and Christ hovers over us – but invisibly. And even though there were clouds above us as impervious as iron or steel, obstructing our vi…ew of heaven, this would not matter. Still we hear God speaking to us from heaven; we call and cry to Him, and He answers us. Heaven is open, as St. Stephen saw it open (Acts 7:55); and we hear God when He addresses us in Baptism, in Holy Communion, in confession, and in His Word as it proceeds from the mouth of the men who proclaim His message to the people. (Martin Luther, January 19, 1538; Luther’s Works, Vol. 22, p. 202)”
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 2, 2012 at 10:09 PM
#64 Amen to Dr. Luther.
by Captain Kevin on May 2, 2012 at 11:14 PM
My favorite gambler (other than my wife, who made a big bet on me 33 years ago) is Daniel Negreanu, who says he became a Christian after reading Lee Strobel’s “A Case For Christ”.
It is no sin to be a gambler if the gambling is edifying (the only sin is not loving).
However, a gambler, unless on TV and thereby providing entertainment, does not provide a service or product. So that is not really a job or a profession. A zero-sum game produces zero. In the case of casino gambling, less than zero.
As Daniel says, “My job is to take money from chumps”.
Taking money from chumps, or from chump casinos, is not, as every job should be, a product or service.
One could argue that taking money from a casino is a service to society – on that rationale, perhaps it is bona fide employment.
by Dansk, All In on May 3, 2012 at 6:50 AM
“The only sin is not loving”
That could be the debate of the day
by Babylon's Dread on May 3, 2012 at 7:22 AM
“It is no sin to be a gambler if the gambling is edifying (the only sin is not loving)….
As Daniel says, “My job is to take money from chumps”.”
by Babylon's Dread on May 3, 2012 at 7:28 AM
Obviously gambling is unloving to chumps
by Babylon's Dread on May 3, 2012 at 7:34 AM
“Obviously gambling is unloving to chumps” . . . hmmm, no debate there . . . last word on the subject, perhaps?
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 8:22 AM
“You got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em
Know when to walk away and know when to run
You never count your money when you’re sittin’ at the table
There’ll be time enough for countin’ when the dealing’s done”
by ( |o )====::: on May 3, 2012 at 9:20 AM
“So Abraham’s nephew, the righteous Lot, moves to Sodom and barely escapes with his life.
Remember Lot’s wife.”
“Sodom” is simply where one sells out, and that can be anywhere, even the most peaceful place, if one becomes so corrupt as to sell out one’s own innocent family as barter for continued comfort and protection.
Remember Lot’s sell-out
by ( |o )====::: on May 3, 2012 at 9:28 AM
G., shoulda known . . .
. . . question is, just when is the dealin done?
if i may?
i think that’s how we use God, . . . we sit at the table until we’re out of aces and then “it’s time to run” to Him . . . but where do the other guys run . . . to?
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 9:38 AM
I’m giving 5 to 1 odds that this thread turns into a fight between Alex and MLD
by Oh No on May 3, 2012 at 9:46 AM
#16 – seems to me that anyone who knows how babies are made and yet believes that there was a virgin birth that was an act of God (i do) should have no trouble with the questions posed in this link . . . and all like it
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 10:50 AM
“…just when is the dealin done?”
When we take a dirt nap.
by ( |o )====::: on May 3, 2012 at 11:11 AM
“…why do people ignore the commentary of a wise economist and only start listening when Bono says the same thing? ”
because Bono is infinitely cooler, especially when accompanied by The Edge
by ( |o )====::: on May 3, 2012 at 11:12 AM
G @ 77 -
Never have truer words been spoken.
by Josh the Baptist on May 3, 2012 at 11:28 AM
And Bono is…well…Bono
by London on May 3, 2012 at 11:29 AM
#18 – am i the only one who doesn’t know the word “repristinate?” turns out it’s something old classic car aficionados do
“we know humanity came to be in a much different way than we’d think from a literal reading of Genesis 1 or even the almost opposite way we’d think from a literal reading of Genesis 2.” i don’t really think that we *know* as much as we think we do, but it is understandable to be tempted to conclude that we do, as some very disciplined people with enormously endowed brains are making incredible discoveries of how astounding God’s handiwork really is . . . appreciate, don’t denigrate . . . get wisdom, get understanding, but fear God
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 11:31 AM
#19 – i know what he’s talking about . . . it’s something different than “mass hysteria” . . . very settled . . . holy perhaps?
BrianD, is it me or is this a very long list?
course, i’ve never sat down before and gone thru the whole lot at one (or two sittings)
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 11:39 AM
#20 – is this a repeat?
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 11:41 AM
since folks are waking up here now . . . i’ll quit posting and start reading you all . . .
BrianD, i did finish the list of links – thank you (i think)
by Em on May 3, 2012 at 11:50 AM
Em, you’re welcome
by BrianD on May 3, 2012 at 12:41 PM
I’m going to the Kings-Blues game tonight and I’m a big Blues fan but if they lose this series I have to pony up a Viking’s Draft hat to my buddy who is a Kings fan. That’s the extent of the gambling I’ll do.
by Solomon Rodriguez on May 3, 2012 at 2:55 PM
Today, I am watching no game. Because the Rockies have the night off.
http://phillipnaessens.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/337/
I am the last interview of the night. We mentioned some mutual friends who are Dodgers fans.
by Reuben on May 3, 2012 at 5:58 PM
Could some of you theology-heads try your hand at my question toward the bottom of the Loose Ends thread? Thanks.
by Captain Kevin on May 3, 2012 at 6:32 PM
BrianD, do you ever read the calvary chapel blog?
by Reuben on May 3, 2012 at 6:58 PM
Totally want to brag on my little cousins whose song has gone viral (nearly 1 million views) and who are getting loads of downloads on itunes.
They got contacted by a producer from The Voice tv show who asked if they would be interested in talking about trying out for the show!!!
Sooo PROUD of the job they did singing and producing the video!!
http://www.godvine.com/Three-Girls-Sing-a-BEAUTIFUL-Version-of-Hallelujah-Wow-1426.html
by London on May 3, 2012 at 7:10 PM
London…that was SUCH a treat! Your cousins are SO talented! I’m trying to share on facebook!
Got to sing in a worship group, at work, for the National Day of Prayer today— it was tremendous blessing.
by Linnea on May 3, 2012 at 7:35 PM
London,
Thanks for sharing that video, it is very special.
by covered on May 3, 2012 at 7:49 PM
The Anti-christ on his way?
Paper uncovers plot to abolish nations statehoods in Europe and to create a “super powerful president” over the EU.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/318045/EU-plot-to-scrap-Britain
by Scott on May 3, 2012 at 8:04 PM
London, beautiful … BTW i have some really nice good looking unmarried grandsons
by Em's parting shot on May 3, 2012 at 8:06 PM
LOL Em. I’ll let them know.
by London on May 3, 2012 at 8:12 PM
Scott,
I am sure that it will show up in many evangelical sermons over the next couple of months – and Joel Rosenberg will write a couple of books.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 3, 2012 at 8:40 PM
London, that was wonderful.
by jlo on May 3, 2012 at 8:56 PM
MLD, you’re probaby right, unfortunately.
by Scott on May 3, 2012 at 9:06 PM
I have it in my RSS reader, Reuben.
by BrianD on May 3, 2012 at 9:14 PM
Rosenberg is a funny character.I was reading the flyleaf on one of his books – and it was going on and on about all of the things he predicted or wrote about that came true, but for the life of me, I cannot find a list which includes details to back up the claims.
by Martin Luther's Disciple on May 3, 2012 at 9:16 PM
CK,
I’m not seminary trained so I probably won’t be much help…but it sounds to me like you have plenty of tools already.
I know Lutheran pastors have to learn and study Greek and Hebrew pretty extensively…but again, they’re pastors. As a layperson, I’m happy NOT to have to study those things. Besides, that’s not my vocation — thankfully.
by Lutheran on May 3, 2012 at 9:31 PM
London, that was a great rendition of one of Brandi C’s best songs…your cousins sang wonderfully. I’ll pass it on too.
BTW, our new restaurant is open…whew.
by filbertz on May 3, 2012 at 9:45 PM
Flip!
Congratulations! Sooo exciting about the new venture! Good for you guys!!
Technically only two of them on the video are my family but I’m claiming them all.
by London on May 3, 2012 at 9:50 PM
Filbertz, Where is your cafe? Do you have a website?
by Nonnie on May 4, 2012 at 12:16 AM
At least to me “The Lord Told me” is the same as saying ” Thus Saith the LORD” and with that kind of spin of what you say, you best be careful ..
I had to remove a missionary from ministry because he was using Black Jack to support his ministry.. There is something about that that is just wrong to me . Of course I am Old Old School I guess. not modern enough for most people. Plus he lost too often for me to believe he was actually a card counter, and not just gambling with his support money — I am on talking terms with him again after several years apart, and I think we are friends, I simply don’t ask where he gets his money, since he doesn’t work or have any visible means of support — anyhow it was just another day in the ministry for me.
One last note, when he was doing this he was being deceptive to everyone who supported him. When I informed those who supported him they all stopped, so if you can’t be honest about how you support yourself, that is sin enough for me. Oh yeah he owed a large amount of money to the some Russian group who were out to take his life, and he lied and made up a story that fooled me into raising funds to get him out of the country. All in the name of supporting “His Ministry” — Oh how I have that term — ” My Ministry” Ministry never belongs to you, if you are in ministry it is a gift of undeserving grace” Not your personal property
by deadmanwalking on May 4, 2012 at 2:43 AM
Re: #17
Is it really an issue of either option C or option A? If you are not one then you are automatically the other?
Or is it that one side wants to portray it that way to make the other look like a ‘late comer’ to the party and give the impression that they are usurpers or less than original/historical?
I think it has more to do with measuring the theology you carry by the Bible and not calling names because someone disagrees with you. How about having a conversation about what the Bible says rather than drawing imaginary lines based on two men who lived 1600yrs after the Apostles and getting offended when anyone challenges the words of our ‘heroes’ or pet doctrines by the Word of God?
Who cares what calvin, arminus, luther, packer, driscol, adam clarke… Says if it condradicts the Word of God. We all need to stop ‘trading on’ their words and honestly, openly, and with curtesy and respect discuss and affirm what God says.
by michael in chandler on May 4, 2012 at 7:25 AM
MIC said:
“Who cares what calvin, arminus, luther, packer, driscol, adam clarke… Says if it condradicts the Word of God. We all need to stop ‘trading on’ their words and honestly, openly, and with curtesy and respect discuss and affirm what God says.”
Couldn’t have said it better
by Solomon Rodriguez on May 4, 2012 at 10:51 AM
off of any subject but something happened to me years ago that still haunts me
Without God there is NO Morality. Or perhaps I should say there is no absolute morality.
Without Reverence, without the Fear of the Lord there is no responsibility to fulfill the Moral principles needed to have a good society.
Without Faithfulness, there is not hope of ever fulfilling the demands of morality, because often morality, or even most of the time Morality makes demands that go against what is easy and pleasant to our nature.
Without Veracity that is true honesty again there can be no true morality, there would only be what is convenient, if we are not honest, if we do not face the truth about our human condition with veracity we will never overcome our inhered weakness.
Without being morally awake, we will never overcome our lack of courage to be the one to take the needed action, we will just blend into the crowd and look the other way when there is a need. Have you ever seen someone naked. I have, and it was a shock that paralyzed me. I was not prepared for it, I was paralyzed and I hate to admit it, but I was a coward, and hoped someone in the crowd would step up and do something when the signal changed and I have to leave. He was clearly mentally ill, but he was naked and I did nothing because I was not morally awake, I was not living in a way in which I was prepared for instant action. I am ashamed.
In the end the goal is to aim at goodness. Now goodness cannot be separated from God. Without God to measure ourselves by there is no way to determine what Good is. If you meditated on the Goodness of God, I mean get the books out and really study the goodness of God, and you will see that God is good, and good all the time in every way and a goodness that the word itself in a word that is to weak to contain the Goodness of God.
Now we can begin like many of us do when we realize how great our God is, and how incredible His Goodness is and begging by defeating ourselves and never trying to imitate His Goodness, or we can start the journey toward becoming Good. it’s up to you.
When Jesus said to cloth the naked, where do you think they come from. For me he burst on the scene and the moment was lost for me forever. The one time in my life I actually say a poor man running down the street naked, perhaps my last chance to help a naked man and I missed it. For the rest of my life I will never forget the look in his face as he ran past my car and looked at me, He was looking for help, i was not prepared for what transpired in front of me and I will be haunted all my days all because I was not morally awake. I was in my Christian stupor where most of us spend out lives
by deadmanwalking on May 5, 2012 at 3:19 AM