Former Mars Hill Church elder Paul Petry’s new blog, Joyful Exiles, was posted just a few days ago but has already brought out some reaction in the blogosphere.
While neither Mars Hill itself nor Mars Hill-sympathetic churches/bloggers have yet to respond, others have:
Howell Scott (HT Wartburg Watch)
Kip’s story from the Mars Hill Refuge blog.
Rachel Held Evans’ 15 reasons she left church and returned to the Church.
Rachel Held Evans spoke at Fuller Seminary.
Karen Spears Zacharias on the conundrum of compassion.
Dan Edelen on when Christian celebrities crash and burn.
Matthew Barrett and Michael A.G. Haykin review N.T. Wright’s When God Became King.
Ben Burleson takes a look at Lent.
A church history reading list from a Catholic perspective.
Frank Viola on the coming revival.
Don Bryant on the reformed as Luddites.
Mike Cosper on social networking and the discipline of secrecy.
Mike Horton on what is antinomianism and antinomianism in church history.
Understanding complementarianism according to Don Carson and Bob Yarbrough.
For “new Calvinists” (and anyone else who’s interested): nine lessons from the life of Charles Hodge.
Al Mohler’s 2012 book recommendations for preachers, via Tim Challies.
Finally: last week I linked to a post by a Southeastern Seminary student, William Birch. Mr. Birch was recently charged with sexual assault (more information here and here). I will remove the link to that particular post, and other posts of his I may have linked to.
This isn’t because I think Mr. Birch has now become unredeemable, or unforgivable; though what he did is sad and reprehensible, if what he did cannot be forgiven by Jesus and covered by His blood…none of our sins can be. This isn’t a statement of excusing his or our sin, it’s a statement of the incredible, undeserved mercy of God.
Still, there are consequences to our sin on this earth, and Mr. Birch certainly will have to deal with the consequences of his. Here, I’m removing the links to assure readers that a) I’m aware of the circumstances b) I’m not overlooking them by keeping the links up c) I don’t want to present a ‘stumbling block’ to anyone who might come here and see those links.
81 Responses to “Linkathon 3/21, part 1”
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I sure do like Bill Kinnon.
Frank Viola and revival.
Sheesh.
Frankie lost me for good at “Charles/Chuck” Finney. Chuckles taught that humans can “do” a revival if they just follow the right steps.
Lutheran – he said he disagrees with Finney.
Thanks for the posting Paul Petry’s blog link. I just read the top post and the one by his wife, and I need a break. I am so moved and hurt and… I don’t have words. I am sorry to anyone to whom I endorsed Driscoll at any time. My gut says he has raised a cult of the most heinous type, manipulating and spinning and controlling, to the point of affecting family and friends of members. But my heart (and the Spirit) remind me that to pray for repentance and renewal in him and all the members and elders, and that those who are being oppressed would be set free. and those who are blinded would be made to see. Seeing how his wife recognized her part at the beginning and was reconciled to some whom she had wronged, gives me hope that my sins too, might be forgiven and redeemed for the glory of God.
A large part of my life history in the Church after age 30 has been spent as a prayerful “sidewalk superintendent” of sorts – when we arrived in the Puget Sound area in 1965 we lived in a community just north of Ballard about the same time that a young non-denom (Baptist of sorts) pastor and his family arrived to pastor a church there (BTW – about that time Ballard also became home to that Charismatic Episcopalian celebrity pastor whose name escapes me at the moment).
BTW – Ballard is/was one of Seattle’s old neighborhoods – historically focused on the fishing fleets, saw mills and shipwrights – a waterfront atmosphere where you could buy halibut and primo red snapper fresh off the boat – it, then, combined a colorful community that goes along with the less genteel waterfronts of the world with a rich man’s marina of pleasure boats along it’s Puget Sound side – on the south, are the waterway locks leading into the working man’s waterfront and on into upscale, residential rimmed Lake Washington
Back to my point (:smile:) The young pastor was the pastor to our daughters’ Good News Club leaders and was enthusiastically recommended to us by them . . . he and the large and growing church moved further north as did we and, eventually, we came to attend the church . . . by then it had split (IMO all parties to the split were proud and, thus, in the wrong).
i mention this history as we watched that pastor go down a path similar to Mark Driscoll’s – back there in the 1970s he was supported and cheered all the way by his groupies (i think he referred to them as his “in crowd”) . . . he thought that he was fighting a battle for the Lord’s Truth and ended up in a rather humiliating sorry mess – he confessed, repented and lived out his final years a humble (i think, dunno) man of God again.
i wouldn’t be surprised if Driscoll and company are perpetuating, maybe even have ties to that history. The sad thing was that above mentioned the pastor was that he loved the Lord – it seemed to me that he couldn’t overcome his own ego – the tough-guy celebrity image
so that is why i follow these stories of Driscoll – he is headed on the same path, but with a stronger support system – i can’t completely condemn the man . . . someone (Michael?) raised the question on the other thread today to the effect, should we focus more on the people who buy into these celebrity personas? If the pew sitters are not pointed to nor are they Christ-centered, is all the blame the pastors’ ? . . .dunno
“When I was in my 20s, I bought into this thinking, even trying to put it into practice. Today, I am skeptical about any alleged methods to create revival.” – From the Viola article pertaining to Finney.
I loved the post. It has me thinking. Is revival possible in our day, and what would it look like?
Oh, well. I’m sure that means everything Frankie says is great.
I don’t know much about him, honestly. But I enjoyed his post about the coming revival.
I’m pretty unimpressed with the entire piece, not just the reference to Chuckles the Clown.
Brian D – Thanks for the links!
I wish that I could look at the Joyful Exiles site, but am unable at work to do so. Maybe they could optimize it for not quite up to date browsers?
I am jaded by anything Viola writes, as he struck a nerve with his “move back to house church” writings.
Paps, do you have Chrome or Firefox?
One of the essential articles, Jonna’s story, is reproduced in full at the Wartburg Watch link.
Em. Ahhh Ballard. Yankee Diner. Love the Oysters with the garlic mashed potatoes, and the Roasted Turkey. Loved the Locks. Worked for a year in Ballard. Found my Uncle dead in Ballard and did the memorial there too.
Just a few memories . . .
Em. Driscoll was raised Catholic and I think he was raised in Seatac . He started around the U District. Ballard became MH biggest piece of real estate and he moved his family there.
However, Ballard has produced at least one good pastor.
BrianD,
Read Joanna’s story on TWW – wow. Also read Kip’s story.
I’ll probably check out JE at home on Chrome.
I actaully liked what Rachel Held Evans had to say at Fuller and her reasons for leaving and returning to the church. She’s not as “shrilly” as I thought she was…
Just kidding folks…..
victotious, i was aware of where Mark is recorded as spending his childhood, i was thinking more of the background of some of his flock – their mindset . . . back in my time, it was Manning’s coffee shop and there was an outstanding Chinese Restaurant somewhere near the Ballard Bridge and a really good (real) diner just across from the Locks
oooh for the good old days – not so much traffic then – the I-5 freeway ended somewhere before Northgate
should delete this, it’s is presumptive irrelevance
victorious, good people in Ballard and i am sorry to hear that you had the shock of finding your uncle that way . . .
that’s what my response should have been . . .
I have a strange desire to tell the story of Mark Driscoll’s untold, alternate universe rasslin career…
The entire Mars hill thing summed up, Cash is King and Might Makes Right.
From the Wrestling Review newsletter, July 1999, reviewing Monday Night Raw:
…The Rock and Stone Cold were in the ring when Driscoll’s music hit. Out came Driscoll and his ‘disciples’ underneath the Titantron, Driscoll, noticably limping after being powerslammed by The Big Show earlier in the evening, had the European Belt around his waist (instead of on his shoulder).
With all six of Driscoll’s ‘disciples’ surrounding him in the ring, he took the mic and began to speak when Austin asked him what the he** he was doing there.
“I’m the European champion, and I’m butting in your business because MY business comes first. And what MY business is to become the WWF Champion.”
“Your business….YOUR business…your BUSINESS…is to become WWE Champion.” Rock said.
“Yes, and–”
“Whoa, whoa, WHOA, WHOOOOAAA….you’ve said plenty.” Driscoll then went to speak, his mike ‘mysteriously’ cut. Rock asked Austin, “Steve, what do you think of Mark Driscoll, MARK DRISCOLL, becoming the WWF Champion?”
“I think Mark Driscoll is a PIECE OF CRAP, and for a guy who talks about his woman he spends too much time hanging around young men.” The crowd howled, and Driscoll and his disciples began to protest, but Rock held up his hand to silence them. “Well, Steve, thanks for telling up what you think. Now let’s hear what the PEOPLE think.’ The crowd booed, Driscoll getting a little more agitated as his mike still wasn’t working.
“Well, we know what Steve thinks, and we know what the people think. We ALL know what The Big Show thinks.” The crowd howls and cheers, Driscoll getting more and more ticked off.
“but before I tell you what I think, let’s hear what Mark himself thinks. Mark, do you deserve to be the WWF Champion?”
Driscoll checked his mike–”it works? About da** time…Rock, Austin, you and Big Show and DX and EVERYONE in the back have tried to exercise AUTHORITY over me ever since I entered the World Wrestling Federation…I’ve PROVEN to everyone, including these fans, that I am the BEST to EVER enter the WWF, and I AM going to get my way and be THE MAN. Not you Rock, not you Austin, not Hunter, not Undertaker, not even McMahon himself. No divas, no demons, no profane, beer-drinking sons of bucks, no proud loud mouth ‘great ones’, no Y2J, no Edge and Christian, no Radicals, just me and good, young, decent, hardworking, American, Reformed MEN, entertaining and informing this sick, sick, disgusting audience…converting them to proper Doctrine. Because, as you all know, this is all about JESUS.”
The crowd booed heartily; Jim Ross said on air, “Mark Driscoll’s got some strange ideas on what Jesus is about.”
The Rock held up his hand again, to silence the crowd, and spoke: “So you and your, uh, disciples, are good, Christian, young men, wanting to reform us all and convert us.”
“Yes, and what does…”
“Whoa, whoa, WHOA, Marky…I’ll ask the questions here, okay? Now. The Rock, and Stone Cold, and all these people, and everyone in the back, including Mister McMahon, knows what you’re all about. We know, you’re the EUROPEAN Champion. We know you WANT to be better than, well, Gillberg. (Crowd cheers, and Driscoll tries to protest, but his mike doesn’t work again). We know you want to be like Triple H, and Kane, and Taker, and like Stone Cold and the Rock. So, Marky Mark Driscoll, what makes YOU think you can be like us, and be the WWF Champion?”
Driscoll picked up his mike, and glared at Rock, walking up to him and Austin face to face, Driscoll’s six disciples right behind him.
“I THINK–”
“IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK, JABRONI!!! Stone Cold Steve Austin and I are going to kick your and your boyfriends’ roody poo, candy a**es in this ring, outside this ring, to the back, to the parking lot, and SHOW you that you don’t know one blue he** of what you THINK.”
Then, Austin delivered the Stone Cold Stunner to Driscoll, then three more stunners to three disciples, while Rock delivered low blows to the other three, and gave two of them the Rock Bottom. Then, to the cheers of the crowd, the last guy got ANOTHER Stone Cold Stunner from Austin, followed up by the People’s Elbow from the Rock.
While the crowd cheered, Rock and Austin stood in the ring, looking down at their seven opponents, all laying unconscious on the mat.
“You know, Austin’s under that gag order from Vince, but he said plenty about how great you and your boy band is. (Crowd cheers even louder). I can speak and say whatever I want, and what I SAY and THINK is that you and your jabroneys SUCK, and THAT’S the bottom line, IF YOU SMEEEEEEEEELLLLLL–EELLLLLL-LLLL-LLLL-LLLL-LLLL WHAT THE ROCK – AND STONE COLD – are COOKING.”
The crowd cheered, as the Titantron cut back to a shot of Vince, Shane and Stephanie McMahon and Triple H…
Reuben, if that was overboard, please moderate
I read Jonna’s story…beautifully written, by the way.
I couldn’t help noticing the resemblance to other church “power” stories….not just the obvious one, but another, too. It seems there is an equation to follow when you wrest control from God.
BrianD is funnier than most here when he vents . . . that was a vent, wasn’t it?
Brian D,
I like my female ninja warriors taking the boy down.
I wonder if cats hiss and dogs growl when they see Marky Mark?
=^.^=
Brian D,
You are awesome!
“roody poo”
I would moderate that if I knew what it was! LOL!!!
Well done, BrianD!
Bwahahahaha!! I knew Big Guy was in rare form when he used the word “rasslin”
If you smellellelllellell what Nomans is cookin’
I am not sure I trust the wisdom or maturity of Rachel Held Evans as a leader after reading her why I left and why I returned blogs…
But I am glad she returned…
And everyone knows I am a rabid egalitarian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKDgEufMKvQ
Watch it till the end.
I had seen that “break their nose” clip before.
Driscoll is not intentionally presenting himself as prideful in that clip at the end of the linked video. But the irony is not lost on the viewer…which may have been the poster’s intent.
This was the sermon that was referenced in Petry’s letter.
That was totally the poster’s intent.
Mark does not understand his own theology.
I feel an article coming…
He does not come across as an idiot. I am sure he understands HIS theology very well and thinks he is right.
“He coaches a lot of young fighters. I coach a lot of pastors. So I asked him, what do you with the guy who doesn’t submit to authority, doesn’t obey the chain of command, doesn’t listen, doesn’t do what he is told, just rebellious, stiff necked, hard hearted and stupid? His answer was brilliant, it was, I Break Their Nose.”
This was in reference to Mr. Petry. His elder. A fellow pastor.
Folks, if this does not make you want to punch Driscoll in the nose, I don’t know what will.
I got a crooked nose and a good attitude…..I got my a kicked in a fight in my neighborhood who put his keys between his fingers and punched a literal hole in my nose….and spiritually by a pastor that I should’ve listened to followed by several years of rebellion and utter destruction who simply told me the right thing to do and I walked away angry.
It makes me a better shepherd.
Rebellious, stiff-necked and hard hearted, just like Mark talked about….and God brought me a hard-assed shepherd who gave me tough love, taught me humility, how to cry, how to find a wife, love a wife and wipe away my kids’ tears. I’m grateful for it.
I don’t know experientially what MD is producing; but Jesus KNOWS how to deal with guys like those MD described, and more than a few pastors do too.
May the men of God arrive to gently but firmly deal with us punks that need it, that will someday turn around and be the men of God we’re designed to be–and do so lovingly, gently and roughly only when needed.
My wife said after I just showed her the Driscoll video,
“I wouldn’t recommend THAT in our line of work” (ministry).
Out of the mouth of a babe….
i watched the “Break their nose” video . . . now then, i haven’t been around much in this old world . . . (suspect Driscoll hasn’t much either) BUT, if you knew old Ballard down around the waterfront? a tough bunch of old hard working (back breaking hard working), hard drinking and definitely not god-fearing Scandahoovians and i guarantee you that’s how those men talked – when and if they talked – just ramp it up several notches punctuated with cuss words that most of us wouldn’t even recognize – no matter where we’d hung out or what music genre we favor
i wonder if many in Driscoll’s “audience” hear echoes of dear old great-grandpa . . . ? ? ?
however, Driscoll needs help . . . he’s smiling now, but God have mercy IMO – praying
Mark D. simply has a stable of ‘fighters’ who will never be as mean and ruthless as him. They are hand-picked for that very reason, and even those who dared ‘rebel’ and challenge him–not for his place, but about his methods–did so respectfully and ‘properly’ evidently qualities he doesn’t value. In his octagon, the rules are all stacked in his favor, there will never be a fair ‘fight.’ He’s not so tough, he’s just a bully with everything in his corner, and therefore tough by comparison. He’s a punk with an attitude. When the audience leaves, that’s when his charade will be plainly seen.
Some of Evans reasons for leaving resonated with me…none of her reasons for returning did.
Seems odd to me that Cosper uses social media to tell people to stop using social media. Oh well…
london, a few of both hit home with me, in the ‘return’ dept. primarily Lamott and L’Engle. Both are authors who are among my favorites (and not just ‘favorite women’). I’m sure my list of 15 departure reasons would be unique as would yours, and, if the day comes, my return list will be as well. I do suspect there will be some overlap as well.
I think for me because I read those authors long ago, they weren’t an influence in my deciding to return. I live their work as well!
I just found, as a woman, that her reasons for leaving are things I’ve experienced, so they resonated with me more.
Love not live.
@29
I had similar thoughts……anyone who got off the bus and then comes back on wanting to be the driver makes me a bit suspicious……
takingacabcent
Maybe people who get off the bus, take a few lessons on their own are the only ones really qualified to drive the bus. The rest are always just gonna be passengers.
What’s Rachel Held Evans deal with “the gay church”? Where’s she coming from on all that (referenced earlier in the week here)?
Usually when people get off the bus, they lose their feel for the road. It takes time to get that feel back. Better to let them take a seat for spell. The stories I could tell of those who didn’t think it was necessary…….
My copy of cutting edge magazine came in the mail today. best magazine on church planting and ecclesiological issues out there. Thanks to all the Vineyard people. The magazine focuses on one main topic each issue. This one is on transitions; something I’ve given some thought to lately.
http://www.vineyardusa.org/site/task-forces/church-planting/cutting-edge-magazine/
A publisher sent me Leonard Sweet’s new book. I’m not sure how that happened. I think I’ll blame Michael….. or Rolph 8)
Thanks for the Cutting Edge link, C.
The goodness of God leads to repentance; not a punch in the nose.
Just read Kip’s story. Again, wow!
You’re welcome Dansk. It’s a great publication that is not afraid to extend beyond their own camp.
Here is a good link – the Lutherans at Concordia University – Irvine are the NAIA basketball champs.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/one-345811-tournament-concordia.html
Is God on their side, MLD?
I found Rachel’s comments on why she returned very important.
Much of what drew her back to church was relationship. Often times relationship can overcome other real or perceived deficiencies in a church.
Lutheran,
“Is God on their side, MLD?”
No, but more importantly, they are on God’s side.
Both Theologically and basketballogy correct
MLD & Lute,
If Tim Tebow would have been at the game and cheering for Concordia, then they really would have had God’s favor. Instead of winning the championship game by just 3 points, they would have won by 33!
KevinH,
Tim’s starting to sound like Chuck Norris!!
I guess he’s got the divine magic dust.
It might serve him well at NY — I heard the coach there doesn’t use language that church people usually use.
Unless I’m misunderstanding, Rachel is still not attending a local church, right? Her “return” is to the “C”hurch, not to a local body. Right?
Lute,
Or is Chuck Norris starting to sound like Tim Tebow?
http://memegenerator.net/instance/12204160
Re: Cent @ 47
Thanks for the link. I found the first article very encouraging.
Mark Driscoll is an obvious wolf in sheeps clothing. I just pray for the sheep that are in there and that they would withdraw from him.
1 Timothy 6:5-useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Rachel Evans has a lot of issues with things that are biblically clear.
Name one.
Homosexuality
5. I left the church because I believe the earth is 4.5 billion years old and that humans share a common ancestor with apes, which I was told was incompatible with my faith.
The bible contradicts this
1. I left the church because I’m better at planning Bible studies than baby showers…but they only wanted me to plan baby showers.
If she wants to teach over men then she is going against scripture
9. I left the church because I felt like I was the only one troubled by stories of violence and misogyny and genocide found in the Bible, and I was tired of people telling me not to worry about it because “God’s ways are higher than our ways.”
Like it or not, stories of bloodshed permeate the old testament and God was right in his decreees to the Israelites to wipe out and kill wicked nations. Misogny? In who’s politically correct definition? I’ll take Pauls instructions concerning a woman’s role in the Church over hers any day of the week.
12. I left the church because I wanted to help people in my community without feeling pressure to convert them to Christianity.
The Great Comission duh!
What good is it to help someones temporal needs without giving them the precious word of God?
13. I left the church because I had learned more from Oprah about addressing poverty and injustice than I had learned from 25 years of Sunday school.
Good luck with looking to Oprah for anything spiritual. Even Jesus said the poor we will always have with us. Yes we should help widows and Orphans but not all poor people want to go out and work.
15. I left the church because one day, they put signs out in the church lawn that said “Marriage = 1 Man + 1 Woman: Vote Yes on Prop 1,” and I knew the moment I saw them that I never wanted to come back.
Enuff said, if you don’t get it then there’s nothing else to discuss.
2. I left the church because when we talked about sin, we mostly talked about sex.
Let’s be real, that’s where a lot of our struggles take place. Not that it is everything but it still is something that is a big hindrance in people’s lives and they need to hear the truth of where fornication, adultery and homosexuality will lead to.
Glad I am not a tree right now
Why is it that some see the book as a complete “non-issue” while others see it is the cardinal literature of every CC? To acknowledge that not everyone is tainted by it or that it does at least exist would go a long way.
And I do learn about how to be a better human from Oprah and most of my sin problem has little to do with sex.
Feeling a little random today!
And I also understand wanting politics out of my place of worship. I wish we were as quick to find commonalities as we are at finding differences. I guess I am seeing the great value of seeking out a meeting of the minds.
and no, I am not a Unitarian….
Full on Jesus freak!
i read both of Rachel Held Evans’ lists . . . i see a weaker sister, but one who is growing and growing out of the generational group-think that plagues our nation and that almost all of us have had to work through – hopefully keeping the good and the true
coming off of that link i read the list of observations from Hodges life and, for me, it was like someone had opened the window and let a warm afternoon summer breeze right off of the ocean blow through the room – one who tears up over the love of God is bearing witness of his spirit’s grasp of God’s beauty – i don’t find anything more moving
i can almost see our Lord sitting down and talking with Oprah – like He did with the woman at the well – trouble is i can also see Oprah coming back to TV town and ending her account with, “he might even be a better Christian than I am, if he just had the money.” dunno
Nomans @73, wrong thread.
I admit freely that the book is not cardinal rule for all CCs. However, the book permeates CC culture.
I would say it is the predominant view.
Solomon and people with attitude like his are reasons Held, and many others, left and are leaving the church. Ironic in a sort of weird and sad way.
Held Evan that should say.