1. A well sourced rumor has it that while some of us are attending events like the Justice Conference to learn new ways to serve people, a certain mega pastor is closing his churches food pantry to make room for a radio station. I guess he missed the conference..
2. We’ve lost freedom of speech in this country. Rush Limbaugh was forced to apologize because he called someone a “slut”. Now, I think Rush was wrong to do so and overall I think that Rush is proof that pigs are the most intelligent creatures in the animal kingdom. However…what he spoke is what he believes. I would rather know up front what a man believes than have the truth hidden under layers of politically correct verbiage. That is far more dangerous than insults and “hate speech”. You can force a persons words to change, but you can’t force a change in heart.
3. Mars Hill wants to reconcile with those wounded under their ministry. My cynical side says all the bad press was helpful…my hopeful side says that this is far more of an outreach than I’ve seen attempted since I’ve been blogging. Choose to be hopeful.
4. A woman is suing a Catholic church because she was refused communion due to openly living in a homosexual relationship. I’m wondering what I would have done in the same situation. This is the issue that will define the future of theologically conservative churches.
5. Some of you are taking “Words With Friends” way too seriously…
6. I got word over the weekend that an old adversary has a few months left to live. The news brought me great grief for his family and great sadness … I regret that I didn’t love my enemy.
7. Maybe we should just close all the churches and do radio. There’s not enough Christian radio out there already and who knows but maybe thousands of souls will be saved and many backsliders brought back to the faith if your pastor has his own program. How will the great unwashed masses know who he is without a radio show? Besides, we all know that radio is the technology of the future… dig deep and spend the church budget on radio….we’ll always have the poor with us. The Gospel is the food they really need.Why send out people, when you can send out a signal? Poor people have cooties.
8. I forgot to give up sarcasm for Lent.
9. The church needs to pray for the ingenuity to form more “for profit” ventures to fund the “non profit” commands of Scripture…think about it.
10. Ed Stetzer is getting ripped by my Reformed brethren and the ODM’s at the same time…for being fair to Rick Warren. In the church, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I think that verse is found in Macadamia 1:2.
248 Responses to “Things I Think”
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
@7, Rush and Beck and Ingram are all the Christian radio one needs.
@8, So did I.
@3, excellent sign. But the public seeking of restoration for some is not about getting things reconciled, its about getting things straight for their own reputation. The question then becomes if it is worth being drug through the mud for the sake of a pastors need to pubically justify their actions.
Ahem, you know who.
@9, that is something worthy of deep thought, and action. There are churches out there that have the pull to build massive ventures and produce tons of cash.
I was thinking how nice it would be to be able to refer a workmate to a church to help him pay his $3000 HSA deductible after his one and a half year old daughter had to go into the hospital for pneumonia this past week. I wish I could pay it myself.
#4 Don’t we already allow many in sexual relationships who are not married to take communion? Not being sarcastic. Steve and I were talking about this the other day as we watched our single neighbor’s boyfriend leave after spending the weekend. She is in her 30′s and has a daughter who is 14. She told me awhile back that she just can’t not have sex. No one does. Then she looked dumbfounded when I told her I was a virgin when I got married at 27.
I agree that homosexuality will be an enormous issue, but we’ve given up on some other fronts as well.
#9 THe place I saw do this best wasn’t exactly a church…it was Jesus People up in Chicago. Of course, it is rather impossible to separate their church from their life. It’s a commune for those who don’t know…when I was there in 92 it was their 25th anniversary. They had several businesses at that time. I know they had a moving company, a graphic design company, of course the recording studio and music businesses (several bands are there).
They use the businesses not only to support the community and the mission they have, Cornerstone Community Outreach, financially…but also to have a place for some of these people to work. When I was there they had women who were homeless with children in their mission. We would watch the kids during the day so the women could go work in the businesses and eventually move into one of the apartments the community owned. Then they could establish their credit and in a year get a place of their own and a job.
There was great long-term thinking to the whole process. That would be a bit much for a church, possibly, but I would think there would be ways to imitate some of these things.
(For those on FB you can check out pictures of people who have moved into apartments: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/set=a.10150311445601406.333550.14280646405&type=3 )
Sorry to ramble…but I love bragging on JPUSA!
things i think?….i think too much about myself, my particular slice of the Christian community pie, and the ‘things i think’ and not enough about Jesus: Who He is and What He’s done. Until i rectify that glaring difference, I don’t think the ‘things I think’ are very thought worthy at all.
Because of Calvary _________ fill in the blank today. Suprise yourself.
In love, In Christ
michael
#1 goes back to what I brought up yesterday – about not naming names or particular situations and having everything fly under the radar.
How is you #1 comment not just plain old gossip?
Apparently the pastor of CCAbq is not on his sickbed.
michael in chandler,
Last I heard, Michael Newnham’s series “Things I think” was about what :: he :: thinks, not about the things you haven’t thought through
Please don’t be so self righteous and sanctimonious, then have the stones to sign “love in christ”
Your disconnect is mere political correctness of the religious kind, aimed as stifling discussion and dialog which are vital to problem identification, solving, and ridding the “body of christ” of its layer of dead skin
As for the martians and their church discipline…interplanetary travel is hard.
In my case I am now rethinking church discipline … what do I do with the woman who was in leadership who meets with the pastor and refuses to give up her lover and with no accusations against her husband tells him she wants a divorce, even after admitting she is wrong but she is unhappy and wants to be happy.
As for gays taking communion… why do these people who want to keep the government out of their bedroom keep insisting the whole world knows who is in there?
#2: I’m not a fan of Rush, and if you don’t care for him, that’s your opinion (which we share). That said, Rush’s comments were taken way out of context. He was being satirical and Swiftonian to prove a point: that Sandra Fluke perjured herself before Congress, by saying she had spent $3000 for contraception for her time in law school. Somebody checked the math, and discovered that this was heavily exaggerated, unless she was in need of birth control every day, three times a day. There’s a limitation on respectable vocabulary words on somebody who engages in such activity three times a day–assuming she told the truth.
Agree or disagree, this pales in comparison to the names that respected liberal commentators/humorists have called noted female Conservatives. The ire is rather one-sided, don’tchathink?
Does anyone take Limbo seriously… can you be conservative christians and approve of anything that guy does? He has by virtue of his endless exaggerations and by his self-centered lifestyle made himself a caricature.
I long for the days of the first ‘gulf waw’ when he was at least funny.
Now he is just an excuse to see what is on NPR
@Babylon’s Dread: whether you like or dislike a commentator is beside the point. As Christians, we are compelled to look at the full context of a person’s contentious comments. Rush could very well be wrong, but if you don’t seek out the full context of his comments, you are just as guilty of herd mentality, and in danger of committing offense of the Eighth Commandment.
My comment isn’t really about Limbaugh as much as this need we have to force impolite people to be polite and make liars of all.
I’ve been called lots of names and they help me to know who is friend and who isn’t…
Sarah,
There was some discussion at the Justice Conference about the need to actually make money to spend instead of relying on donations and non profit status…and I found it odd that most of us thought that was a unique concept.
I think it will be more of a parachurch initiative…
I agree, Michael. I just wanted to convey the context behind Limbaugh’s (seemingly) improper comments. Taken out of context, it was rude and insulting; but taken in context, he was saying that she perjured herself before Congress. Two very different conclusions from the same rant, where the setup makes all the difference.
Seeking out the full context of Rush Limbaugh’s statements to be fair to him is like seeking specific parts of a sausage…
As for the 8th commandment and El Rushbo… seriously? You think it is morally incumbent upon us to give Limbaugh a break about the true context of statements where he is clearly trying to embarrass and ridicule those he is referring to?
Moses does not live in that neighborhood.
Nick,
Do you seek the full context of Keith Olbermanns statements?
I care very little about either side, both ride the beast as far as I can tell…
“You think it is morally incumbent upon us to give Limbaugh a break about the true context of statements where he is clearly trying to embarrass and ridicule those he is referring to?”
I don’t agree w your thesis. It is morally incumbent upon us to understand the full context of a person’s comments *if* you choose to comment on those very comments. *Afterwards*, you can then state emphatically whether or not Rush was “clearly trying to embarrass and ridicule those he is referring to”.
BD,
What do you do in that scenario?
I would have to complete the Matt 18 process and excommunicate the woman.
However, Sarah has spoken well that we have lost most of our moral authority in these matters…
The idea of “patrons” is vital to the supporting the investment in the arts, scholarship and future generations. Generally it is simply impossible to create sufficient volume of products or services with enough mass market appeal to fund these worthy causes, therefore donations need to be sought as well. Sometimes we craftsmen and artists donate our work or skills, or we are funded to create enduring art or enriching publications. My work as a live sound engineer and post production podcast engineer are funded by patrons who believe strongly in what we create for the enrichment of this and future generations.
There is something to be said for creating a cottage industry of viable publications of spoken word podcasts, eBooks, videos and such. The hardware & software and associated equipment plus professional skilled craftsmanship are required to bring even the most humble efforts to market. A “radio station” is essentially a podcast gone live and the studio is a performance venue for interview staging and post production work. There are costs associated every step of the way, I know as I have been in the business of building pro audio associated venues for my prior career.
Somehow this is all still more noble than selling indulgences, trading in relics, or building religious theme parks, but never at the expense of directly supporting and impacting individuals and families in need.
Michael–in all fairness, I don’t choose to comment on Keith Olbermann’s comments. Nor do I call for him to apologize. If I hear thru the New Media grapevine that he said something that interests me, then I most certainly would.
G,
That;’s a very well thought out take from another angle…I’ve recently found out have many skilled craftsmen it takes to produce a simple ebook, as you know.
My contention is that the economic need is so great in so many places that I can’t justify another multi million dollar expenditure to duplicate whats already out there.
G-man…..your #8 was spot-on.
I was thinking the same thing, but couldn’t say it as nicely as you did
. He’s been here before. Why read a blog if you don’t want to know what someone else thinks, and then leave a comment on what YOU think ?
Dread…I’ve wondered the same thing, re: your #10 bedroom comment. It’s similar to when they had a group here protesting to ‘have a voice’, then the same group went to a stadium with drums to drown out the Dobson Marriage thing.
Thank you Nick
You have nicely acquitted the august Mr Limbaugh. He should hire you.
On his part he has apologized for his poor choice of words in his ‘excellence in broadcasting’
Now we can resume normal blogcasting
I’m ok with people posting what they think…I enjoy it…especially when it doesn’t fall down predictable lines.
I will say that the “liberal/conservative” stuff now bores me to tears as I think it’s an artificial media construction that the masses have bought into…
i can take Limbaugh in very small doses – once in a while he hits the nail on the head – as do the more flippant of Michael’s commenters here
“I will say that the “liberal/conservative” stuff now bores me to tears as I think it’s an artificial media construction that the masses have bought into…”
now that just made my day . . . amen and thank you
Em,
You’re welcome…I owe the esteemed Rev. Dread a debt for prodding me to look at the book of Revelation from another angle.
Doing so has enlightened me in many ways on these issues.
In all fairness, I think the ire against Rush Limbaugh (and utter silence over specific liberal commentators calling noteworthy female Conservatives even worse, heinous, unprintable names), as proof-positive of the artificiality of this very media construct.
Hi Please Note!
Michael,
It all takes a vision, marketing, and getting in front of people who agree with the vision, one mind at a time. Enrich someone’s life and they will part company with their money and or time. There’s nothing wrong with any of that unless there is duress, religious, financial, or political, then it becomes slavish and problematic, such as what Luther pointed out in his taking on the church, or as you point out in taking on the ignorance about Mexico, or as what many of us are realizing when we buy Apple products. Reform is required and justice sometimes means investigative intrusion to force reform as has been the case with Apple.
Yeah, I have often wondered, do we need ANOTHER radio station, church building, religious retreat center. Why can’t the existing ones become multipurpose? But there are very few interfaith venues and with ODM’s yapping at any attempt to do anything positive, people get fed up, figure out what they want to do and just do it…
“…just do it”, now there’s a concept!
“I owe the esteemed Rev. Dread a debt for prodding me to look at the book of Revelation from another angle.” does that predict another thread coming?
Nick,
What Rush said is tame compared to the stuff I’ve read from Anne Coulter.
I get your point, but neither side holds any religious high ground…at all.
G,
I hear you…and isn’t it interesting that since Jobs death we’re all willing to think more deeply about Apple?
Not that Apple is unique in it’s exploitation of workers…
Regarding the woman who needs the birth control and all the BS coming from Rush, all I can say is… “jealousy”
Gotta go dash off, I get to spend the day earning my living working in Photoshop (my dream come true)
#3
I will give tMHC credit for making some type of attempt. The usual mode of damage control is to remain silent…..
Hey G !
Michael- Can you flush-out what Dread shared with you regarding Revelation, or was it just the ‘Wright’-thing to do
?
Em,
I would do that thread if I thought I could do it justice.
The Revelation is intensely political…the empires of this world against the kingdom of God and the demand that we give allegiance only to one.
The implications for today are astounding…
Jobs was a larger than life personality and enamored us all with his charismatic drive and leadership and quite literally distracted us from seeing a problem.
Now that the pope of Apple has passed it’s time for Apple’s Luther to arrive on the scene
PN,
I think Wrights little book is a good place to start…but once I started digging I realized it was just a start.
“Now that the pope of Apple has passed it’s time for Apple’s Luther to arrive on the scene.”
I think it’s America’s Luther we need…this is systemic.
Centy,
You have spoken well…I wonder if the call for reconciliation will receive the attention that the abuse did?
Will we actually take the next biblical step or will we just complain?
#3
Cautious optimism.
Chile,
Wouldn’t it be great if it were true?
I don’t owe RL, nor any other talking head, the courtesy of investigating the so-called full-context or becoming an apologist for his/their comments. He/they owe their listeners the respect of speaking clearly and succinctly what they mean, what they have thought through themselves, and have concluded based on their research, values, and presuppositions. If he/they can’t do that, he/they aren’t worth listening to. For anyone to wear their panties in a bunch over his blather is their problem.
In other words, free speech doesn’t equal ‘speak freely’
“In other words, free speech doesn’t equal ‘speak freely’’ . . . just one more pithy comment today – i can’t take all this pith
seriously there is some clear thinking going on here this morning . . . or else i’m not . . . dunno . . .
#3 . Ummm….That letter from Mars Hill….is something I could wish that CC would do. Kudos to them for at least giving the appearance of extending an olive branch.
If CC would put out a letter like this, it would speak volumes.
I will wait and see before speaking ill of MH and this situation.
But I do leave myself open to call out Driscoll for making a bad statement….
fil,
I think Rush simply said what his listeners want to say.
Frankly, I think this is healthier than hiding behind gentler words that cover the true beliefs.
Filbertz–if you choose to comment on Limbaugh’s comments, then, yes, you do have a moral imperative to get the full context. Otherwise you would be as guilty of making “uninformed” statements as the person you pin this claim upon.
As for “being clear”– Rush used satire to prove his point, regardless as to whether you agree or disagree with said point. Satire can be taken out of context far more easily than straight commentary, and often revels in extremes. Everybody I spoke with who listened to that broadcast understood exactly what Rush was saying.
Michael @ 44– “Wouldn’t it be great if it were true?”
It would actually restore hope.
I think I’d be elated!
I like satire…for example, if I would have written that I wish that Rush’s mom had used contraception, that would have been satirical.
Kudos to Ed Stetzer for at bringing up the Q+A with Rick Warren, as I saw that late last week myself.
Earlier last week, I knew as soon as I saw the ODMs going crazy over his supposed “forsaking the gospel”, “apostasy”, or worse, that there was more to the story.
Looks like the reporter got it wrong….shocker…
Chile,
Me too!
I find it disturbing that the internet is very quiet about the offer…
Papias,
They still haven’t let up…no one brings page hits like Warren, I guess.
Limbaugh can exercise his right of free speech, and I’ll exercise my right not to listen.
I attend a church that fired their worship leader. The details not important here; but once the leaders realized that many in the church were very hurt by how it was handled, they sought to understand why.
As a result, the leadership apologized for not handling the situation better. 300 people had left the church, so the leadership spent the next 2 years taking each person out to coffee and apologizing. AMAZING!
Could this church lose 300 and not even notice? Yes. But these leaders knew they had a responsibility to make things right with people they had wronged, especially if they wanted to be right with God, themselves (and as a church as a whole.)
This church is currently experiencing a new issue, yet there is a general sense of trust that ultimately it will be resolved well.
Re: Michael @ 53
“I find it disturbing that the internet is very quiet about the offer…
It’s possible that the initial response many have is one of being stunned, speechless.
… followed by doubt
… followed by cautious hope …
Chile,
Very cool story @ #56…
Sarah #4 “Don’t we already allow many in sexual relationships who are not married to take communion? Not being sarcastic.” .
That’s a good point. It doesn’t matter if you are gay or straight – if you are having sex outside of marriage, you probably should not expect to be offered the wafer….
Or… If your church offers communion to fornicators but not the “effeminate”, then there’s an issue there….
#1,8: I honestly can say I don’t know anyone who actually listens to radio. Maybe it’s because I live were there’s no traffic, and people just don’t spend time in cars. Podcasts are how people listen to sermons (or downloaded mp3′s).
Nick, you’ll notice I didn’t comment on his comments, only on RL’s responsibility to speak clearly and own his words. Years ago I concluded based both on his “talk” and the “talk of his listeners” that he would not be a person I’d invest my precious time listening to. RL can say whatever he wants, but when the poo exits the fan shroud, it should only spray him. He issued an apology this weekend, but since he didn’t offend me, it isn’t my place to judge its sincerity.
In two comments I’ve spent two year’s worth of my RL attention span.
Bryan,
Exactly my point…thank you.
#3: Watching MH’s transparency & integrity on this is refreshing. Public statements like these are very helpful to the masses impacted by the information/misinformation gleaned from the web. It obviously doesn’t always sway the hardest critic, but then again even Jesus had similar media confrontations and still was crucified.
I liked what JJS said in his interview, that at least MH attempted some form of discipline, though those involved were excessive, they were later removed.
What I see is a large movement that’s seeking to do the right thing by:
-not dismissing sinful behavior,
-nor ignoring the imposing elephants
-while putting a public call for reconciliation w/ those previously injured (I’ve NEVER see this in a church, and it’s VERY refreshing)
as stated on the MH blog: “Naturally, we’ve been following these stories closely…Since we don’t know who they are, we’d love to meet with them and serve them and begin a process of reconciliation. So please, if you’re reading this, do let us know who you are so we can do all we can to love you by sitting down to meet”
By issuing these public statements they HONOR to God and demonstrate LOVE for the people (2 Corinthians 5:18-21) who are bound by information that’s destructive and is quite possibly set on fire by hell (James 3:6).
It’s in this way they set forth a worthy example to be followed by other movements and denominations
As to radio – you guys come out to sit in So Cal traffic sometime and see it’s importance here.
As an aside, most radio stations stream online so really it is worldwide technology.
We do radio and give out food – more food than radio.
Life is not a perpetual either/or.
Mike–your example of satire didn’t fit the raison d’taire. The issue at hand isn’t about whether one should use contraception at all (Rush’s personal life proves he clearly aligns himself with the majority here). The issue is whether the government–with all its current budget problems– should subsidize contraception in its Obamacare HHS mandate, especially for those religious-based organizations (Catholic hospitals, charities) which have a moral objection to contraception.
Catholics who disagree w Catholic Church teaching on this matter are still free to pay for contraception out-of-pocket. The current HHS mandate is infringing upon the Constitutional rights of those who have a religious objection to this.
THAT was the reason why Sandra Fluke testified before Congress, to promote pro-contraception coverage in Obamacare. And Rush was dissecting her testimony, believing against Obamacare, and in this instance, against such coverage.
What makes this interesting is that Catholic-based institutions, by and large, are totally supportive of Obamacare… until the contraception mandate. Because of this, it is very possible that a sizable number of hospitals will close, due to being bankrupt for paying fines for not adhering to the HHS mandate.
Bryan,
Very well said and I concur heartily!
Nick,
My son is the only person on earth who is allowed to call me “Mike”.
Unless there has been an adoption I’m unaware of, my name is Michael…
#7 has been a bur under my saddle for years, particularly for the actions of a local pastor (Centy…yes, that one) who just had to have, not only a program, but his own FM radio station. He drove his church both into financial straits and most of his leadership away due to his commitment to this albatross in a saturated market.
fil, if you read my response to you, you’d see that, according to those listeners whom I spoke to, he DID speak clearly and own his words.
I don’t listen to his show, I’m not a fan, but it’s the greater narrative here that is worth dissecting.
This point about withholding communion is what I was trying to get at last week – and I asked the pastors here that if they knew that someone was in open unrepentant sin would they withhold communion from that person. It doesn’t have to be homosexuality – say it’s the guy who left his wife and family, not divorced yet and is now shacked up with his girlfriend.
No one would answer in the affirmative – I did get some answers that danced around the issue.
But here might be an important point. What is it that we are putting in our mouth? I think that, and how the elements are distributed say a mouthful (pun intended)
If it is “just” bread and wine / juice, perhaps it does not matter who takes it. If it is “just” bread and wine / juice, perhaps it does not matter to whom the plate is passed – as opposed to actually being served individually by the pastor with words spoken to the individual.
fil,
It’s a burr under mine as well…especially as I sell hundreds of adapters to people who want to play podcasts and their own music in their cars…
sorry Michael. It wasn’t meant to conjure anything differentlly.
MLD,
Those of us that hold a sacramental view of the scriptures do see this differently…but I’m not sure of the value of making that point again.
Nick,
I think we’re all aware of how conservatives and the Catholic church are framing this issue.
Due to the manner in which they handle the pedophile issue, I don’t have much regard for how they frame anything.
You insult my denomination with a sucker punch, but you get agitated when I call you Mike? Look at who’s losing the civility narrative now?
Michael,
You said in the original posting; “I’m wondering what I would have done in the same situation. This is the issue that will define the future of theologically conservative churches.”
That’s what I am asking people – “what would you do?’ Is it enough to say “well if they take what I offer in an unworthy manner, that is a curse they bring down on themselves – it is not up to me as the pastor to block them.”
I am saying that this Catholic priest and many others do in fact see it as their responsibility to prevent someone from eating at the table.
Nick,
It’s not a sucker punch…it’s a simple statement that if an organization is going to take the moral high ground on an issue where it is being offended, it should take responsibility when it is the offender as well.
MLD, maybe, instead of theorizing on the pastors, we perhaps, should examine this?
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
1Cr 11:27-31 – in the old King James: “Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.”
that sounds as if the partaker is to examine **himself** . . . so the question is, what burden does that place on the one administering? does he forbid or warn to the effect: “I know you are in sin, do you know the ramifications of taking communion and have you asked forgiveness?” could i, if i were a pastor/priest then refuse to administer? dunno . . .
if i’d placed myself under the authority of a denominational policy, would that decide for me? dunno . . . so grateful that God knows our hearts and stands ready with grace and mercy
MLD,
I would have to deny them the table… but it would be with tears.
MLD – Does your Lutheran pastor withhold in these cases?
Cause for me….I would want a pastor to withhold if he knew that someone was in open disobidience(sp).
If your know a pastor knew about a case, and they gave communion, would that affect you attending that church?
Nick, how exactly was that an insult or sucker punch?
I love “Things I Think”…so much stuff to comment on, so little time
Michael–it IS a sucker punch. Catholic hospitals and charities, by and large, were not guilty of pedophile priests and the errant bishops who transferred them. They, and the people they assist, are the victims.
It is outrageous how oblivious you are to your insulting comments (while still mocking others’ incivility). I demand an apology.
still a good discussion here, so don’t blow it on the personals, eh?
#5 By saying taking WWF too seriously are you meaning folks play it too often or are people unfriending you after a loss??
I enjoy Rush when I listen which isn’t often. When I drove for a living I listened a lot. I read a transcript of his where he called her names which was overstepping things. He made some good points as far as who should pay for her contraceptives and also that they are easily obtained for free. Also, the man or men in her life might want to pony up a bit.
Just think if you could play ‘jezebel’ on triple letter and triple word!! Please intercede for me!!
Nick, “I demand an apology.”?
I don’t think Michael’s statement was against you…but rather against SOME of the bad choices of a fallible church.I don’t think you should take it personally. Your identity is ‘Jesus’ not the Catholic church.
Wow, Nick.
An apology??!!
Time to change your shorts.
You’re a great advertisement for the RCC.
Not.
any Catholic should see that hay maker coming a mile off and not only duck, but have a reasonable response ready…like an upper cut!
cutmefil
Erunner,
People get really serious about the game…really serious.
I should have written a book of “Words With Friends” cheats and I could have retired.
Nick,
I have a stack of books and investigative reports on the way the Roman church has handled the issue and I’m not going to apologize for anything I say about it…because it has been handled with callous disregard for untold thousands of lives.
If you want to frame this contraceptive issue as one about religious liberty, I can discuss and possibly concur.
If you want to posit moral high ground, I ain’t buying it.
Bryan–Michael made a totally out of context assertion that had no place in the disvussion at hand. And he did not say “SOME”. And he also displayed his ignorance on the great strides the RCC made in this area over the past decade–as a result, the programs put in place has put the RCC as among the lowest rates of pedophilia amongst all institutions.
But that is irrelevant. If one of Michael’s family members was guilty of cannibalism (to make a ridiculous example), it does not logically compute that Michael himself has no say when his Constitutional rights are being trampled upon in a completely different social area.
“I demand an apology”
Dude hasn’t been here too long… Nick you gotta bleed real blood to get an apology around here. When a bull comes into this pasture he better be ready for some serious head pushing. Now if your apology demands are grounds for continued fellowship …we… haste la vista baby… cause you ain’t gonna like this place.
The Big Church has been insulted by bigger goons and harder blows than it will ever get here. Just chill and enjoy the debate … no feelings on the sleeve in this house.
Everyone gets a bloody nose… if you survive we give you the secret handshake.
Hang out a while and add to the flavor … you’ll be fine
Having thought about it for a moment…I will apologize for bringing that issue into this discussion.
I will not apologize for believing that the RC has no moral credibility with me, but Catholic hospitals and charities are institutions worthy of respect.
Thus, Nick gets his apology.
Paps,
“MLD – Does your Lutheran pastor withhold in these cases?”
I would hope he does – but I am not privy to what he knows.
It wouldn’t shake me if I saw him communing a known unrepentant sinner, because I may know something he does not know. But it does make a great case for close / closed communion.
1. I wonder how many people that food pantry was feeding since they are in a mostly commercial/industrial area. Also, I thought that wasn’t a distribution center as much as a collection center. I’m sure that someone else can pick up the slack there for distribution.
4. The occasion for the priest refusing the woman communion was the woman’s mothers funeral. What happened to compassion? That guy used a time of grief to take a political stand. Shameful!!
7. Theology matters. Churches that believe that “real life” starts after we die, and this life is good for us to make a final decision about where you will spend eternity, then it makes sense that they would choose “spiritual food” over “earthly food”.
Technically, like someone said, radio can reach the whole world through online streaming, but, seems there’s already enough places doing that.
Maybe food isn’t the best use of resources for that particular church, but there certainly are enough needs in this state, they could find some area where they could pitch in and help in the here and now.
I wonder if they think, they are “too good” for getting dirty. That somehow they have to be “better” than those they serve so that those they serve will have a “role model” to look to as an example of how good their life can be if they become a christian and start attending that church. Isnt that the point of having all the athletes and “celebrities” talk about their testimony?
9. Yep. That’s something we ate working on, but haven’t quite sorted yet. If I had a church full of resources, I can’t imagine that I wouldnt already have at least a couple places started. It just makes sense in so many ways.
I wonder what The Luther Insulter would say about an apology request?
I accept your apology, Michael. Thanks for understanding.
“But it does make a great case for close / closed communion.”
It does indeed.
If I remember my Jonathan Edwards correctly, he was voted out by his congregation b/c he tried to do that very thing.
London,
I think #9 is where my main interest will be after life settles down.
There will always be empire builders and those who support them, but that conference really has helped me to let go of the angst I feel watching them.
Nick – welcome aboard!
As a comedian, do you know who did that routine with Baseball – between the OT Saints and the NT Apostles? I saw him do it live, and it was freakin’ hilarious, I just can’t remember who the comic was.
Jesus is the catcher, and Peter is the pitcher.
In an announcer’s voice, he says “Jesus gives Peter the sign…..Peter denies it!”
Papias–not sure, that’s the first I’ve heard that. Sounds Tim Hawkins-ian, but it could be any number of imitators.
Nick, A few minutes on Google will do wonders…
It was Dan St. Paul doing “The First Baseball game”.
#9 is where my interest is at the moment as well Won’t be done by churches in this area I don’t think. At least for a few years. Portland and the east coast are a lot more progressive than New Mexico is.
My favorite session of the conference dealt with social entrepreneurship (fancy name for it) and I met a lot of groups there who were already involved in building things. One woman told me that it was “persecution” (her word) of Christians in Portland lately that made them start thinking differently about how to raise money for their cause.
I don’t think pastors can truly understand, for the most part, why people would want to start businesses to fund the work they are doing because pastor get their living from someone elses’ donations. So I think it isn’t really the way they think…If they need more money, they can do a teaching that guilts people in to giving, or just use words and position to convince folks in the room to give more. Non profits don’t usually have a captive audience like that.
Para church or non profit organizations have relied on donations too, but they seem to be more nimble and creative about ways to raise funds, so I think you are right, it will come first from those organizations.
London,
I’m not sure that pastors don’t understand the desire to use for profit to pay for non profit activities…I think it’s just a newer paradigm that we really don’t have our arms around yet.
My gut says it’s the future…
I think they understand the concept. Just not in the same way non profits and para church folks do.
Yes, Michael re: #9! There are unlimited areas of creativity in this area to be explored, I think.
Hmm. Need to consciously add paragraph when using a phone apparently.
In the Ed Stetzer interview with Rick Warren, I did find this statement to be telling – or at least the evangelical fear of speaking against a Jew.
“whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostal, or Evangelical… and they all have the doctrine of the Trinity in common. Hindus, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, Unitarians, and everyone else do not accept what Jesus taught about the Trinity.”
I wonder why, out of all that are listed, the Jews were left out – or at least hidden in the “everyone else”. Why is there such a fear to say that Jews worship a different God?
MLD,
I think Rick already has had his fill of poop storms…a statement like that would blow up the internet.
An excerpt of Dan St. Paul doing “The First Baseball Game” here:
http://www.danstpaul.com/baseball.html
Bryan @60 and Michael @62: We have 30-40 new people coming to church every Sunday as a direct result of our local radio program on AM radio. Many of those are coming from churches that have bad teaching and many are giving their lives to Jesus. No exageration, that many new people every week. It is a valuable tool for us.
I know of an elderly shut-in that listens to our radio show. We bring him to church on Sundays, but I know he awaits hearing me on the radio with almost as much anticipation – he even listens to the repeat when it airs.
Literally millions have an opportunity (and thousands are taking the opportunity), brief as it may be, to get a word of edification from our ministry. And at a cost less than half of the electric bill for the church.
E said, “#5 By saying taking WWF too seriously are you meaning folks play it too often or are people unfriending you after a loss??
”
I’d have no friends then, I rarely lose
(I think my comment illustrates what Michael is saying LOL).
Late to the party, but I still wanna dance:
1. Eh, what’s new?
2. The entirety of what Rush said was much worse. He has the right to spew any kind of hatred he wants, but I don’t have to use the products that advertise with him. If I were a sponsor, I would pull all my ads immediately.
3. We’ll see. I like that they are acknowledging some wrong-doing, but I really think their ecclesiology is broken beyond repair. They are going to follow Driscoll, period. And where he is leading them is not good.
4. Suing for refusal to marry gay couples will also become a big deal. I guess at some points, churches will have to decide to get out of bed with the fed.
5. Never played it. Never will.
6. Hmm. Always sad. I wish I could live with fewer enemies, while still clinging to the truth. It’s a delicate tight-rope for sure.
7. What was that about nuance?
8. Probably wouldn’t hurt.
9. Couldn’t disagree more. Business people from within the church should fund the church, but the institution itself should never endeavor to be capitalistic.
10. Don’t see why Ed should catch any heat, but I can’t feel to sorry for Warren. He loves to skirt the edges of acceptable Christian practice, and then cry victim. He does it over and over. I am tired of it.
“9. Couldn’t disagree more. Business people from within the church should fund the church, but the institution itself should never endeavor to be capitalistic.”
Why on earth not?
Good question Michael!
Having “business people” roles being minimalized to just writing a check and handing it to others is actually not allowing them to be full participants in the life of the church. Sounds weird, but it’s true. There’s something great, yet also empty, about knowing your sole value to the church is money.
That probably made no sense to anyone but me.
Well, in that case, what’s wrong with the radio stations? Just turn a profit…so more can be used for good. That’s dirty stuff, man. That’s inherently predatory, not freely-giving, protecting the weak like the church should be.
You want to see a circus? Let the Driscoll’s of the world abandon the non-profit charade. It’ll be pre-reformation pay for forgiveness all over again. Jesus would turn over tables, for sure.
So if we were able to create little cottage businesses that helped people go to work, helped pay for food and medical care, helped with utility bills, etc…that is somehow bad?
Done right, it could really fund the benevolence of the church and it’s outreach to the community.
It’s already happening in a lot of places in the world and all over the US. The churches will jump on board as soon as it starts turning a profit.
Why would the church itself be doing that? Why not just entrepreneurs from within the church body?
Yes, your idealized view of for profit businesses run by churches sounds great, but there is a mammoth downside. There is a reason that it has happened very little in the last 2000 yrs.
I know of one faith community here in Portland whose income from bookstore sales (books, CDs, sermon recordings and transcripts, art etc) is designated 100% to benevolence. Store is operated by volunteers and they also have a book drive once a year so parishoners donate gently used materials that keeps inventory costs down as well. Of course used are sold less than new – and that’s great for bargain hunters. Still also maintain a library where everything is available for loan as well.
#3 . I remain skeptical. The statement by MH is vague. Signing off on a statement1 as “The Mars Hills Pastors” carries about as much weight as signing off with “CCOF”.
If Mars Hill was serious they would start with Mark Driscoll reconciling with those fellow leaders he has directly tarnished and cast off or forced out. Mars Hill leadership equals Driscoll and his current posse.
Reconciliation in the name of Jesus starts with repentance before the person of Jesus, not some “nice” statement acknowledging they have received from bad press.
“Yes, your idealized view of for profit businesses run by churches sounds great, but there is a mammoth downside. There is a reason that it has happened very little in the last 2000 yrs.”
What are those “mammoth downsides” Josh? Interested to know. Especially as it is being done well in Places around the world and those folks aren’t reporting those results.
Why not have a church start a business that benefits the neighborhood? Maybe the Disagreement is more about the definition of church. Not sure.
For the record, my phone is randomly capitalizing words, and I’m too lazy to correct them all. Hopefully no one reads more into it than that.
Caps aren’t showing up in your posts, L. Strange, huh.
The goal of a business is to make a profit. That should never be the goal of the church. Seems pretty simple to me.
I still don’t understand the insistence that the institution itself start the business. Again, I’m all for business people from the church starting plenty of for-profit businesses.
And also Josh, I’m asking about your take on this not to harass or pick a fight, but because we are looking at the possibility of starting something here on town with the goal of employing folks but also being a benefit to our community.
A 28 year old woman in my church 20 some years ago started a day care for homeless kids. Now, there’s almost 30 people employed there and they are going to build another one soon.
We were small….could never have had enough people in that church to fund something like that.
So…the church can only receive donations…from people that are struggling to find jobs, pay bills, and go to the doctor?
There is nothing inherently sinful or unbiblical about honestly earned profit.
Who is insisting that the institution start something? Institutions can’t start something? Not me.
Ignore the second question. My point was that only people can’t start something, not an institution.
“So…the church can only receive donations…from people that are struggling to find jobs, pay bills, and go to the doctor?”
Sounds like a story Jesus told.
I’m sorry I’m not able to be more relevant in this conversation. It’s just that turning the Church into a capitalist institution is so far against what I believe the church should be. I just can’t shift my paradigm to where that is suddenly a good thing.
Can..not cant … Stupid phone keyboard!!
Josh, can you please answer my question about mamouth issues?
And josh I think your protests are relevant. Im beginning to think Michael and I are talking about two different things. You may be tracking more with what he is saying than I am. I’m not necessarily advocating that the church starts a business to fund itself. Maybe that’s what you guys are saying though.
You run into a ton of issues, immediately. Are those employed expected to come to your church? If not, surely there are people in your church who also need a job. Why are you helping outsiders, but not them? If yes, the jobs do go to church attenders, aren’t you paying them to come to your church, and aren’t they working to be in fellowship with the body of Christ?
We’ll start there.
What I’m saying is that the economic needs in this area are so great that donations ain’t gonna cut it and we have to find creative ways to create income for benevolent purposes.
I’m utterly exhausted from all the reasons why it can’t be done while in the meantime the needs are unmet.
I think all possibilities should be on the table.
Yeah. I think you are talking about something different than I am talking about. I’m not sure that having a church fund itself through a business is a good idea at all for many of the reasons you brought up plus more.
I was talking about churches starting business, Anne had an example, that would benefit the neighborhood (however you choose to denfine that).
I think it would be great to have churches involved in providing jobs for people in the community.
Let’s say the church starts a food ministry where someone can learn how to cook and work themselves into a job. That kind of thing.
There’s other groups that sell goods made in other countries. Ten Thousand Villages is run by the Mennonites for example. The stores provide employment for people in other countries and the stores in the US are manned by volunteers. That kind of idea is what I’m thinking.
Faith based entreprenuership to meet real human needs seems like just an extension of the having a bake sale to finance missions trip.
I am not understanding the specifics of the discussion but I am very interested and as both a small business owner and a pastor I think I have some perspective to share. But I’m not clear what is being proposed by London and Michael.
A business first is ‘owned’ by someone or something. There are sole prop, p-ships, corps of various types (C, S, LLC). So that is my first area of questions. (I’ll return later to discuss)
Is the church just doing something (like book store or coffee shop) where proceeds go to fund ministry? Like Anne said with the bake sale example (but much larger).
Is the church investing money to help others start a business, with the church as partner, shareholder or whatever with a claim on the profits?
Is the church sole owner of a separate business, not run under the umbrella of the church (like the coffee bar is)? This I guess is like the Mormons and the mini-marts where the profits are used for ministry.
Or is the business itself, supposed to be the ministry while also making a profit (or at least breaking even). Like a Christian hospital or school?
For the first two years of my Christian walk I saw myself as a Christian businessman and thought that was actually my calling. I structured my business and personal income from an optimum tax strategy for the goal of supporting ministry, specifically to get the Jesus film translated into a language that hundreds of thousands of people spoke, most of whom could not read – so they might hear the gospel in their own language.
I did not see myself as simply ‘writing a check’ but as a major funding partner for a ministry goal. Yet, my business had no relationship in any way shape or fom with a church or parachurch ministry. I thought this was an example of the gift of giving.
I am curious, especially if others are doing so already, just what is being meant by churches establishing and using for-profit businesses for ministry.
Thanks in advance…
one of the biggest issues Christians will need to confront when stepping up their assistance to the needy is “control” and “strings attached” We, collectively, like to call the tunes if we’re paying the piper. Somehow grace, mercy, and benevolence need to be freed from our tight constraints. Perhaps it is more of an issue for evangelicals or fundamentalists, I wonder. I am learning these lessons as we walk through difficult transitions with my daughter–unemployment, felony record, drug/alcohol addiction, lifestyle values, poverty, welfare, etc. These things are difficult enough, but the ‘well intentioned dragons’ she’s encountered from various ministries keep knocking the wind out of her.
I don’t know about churches starting up a business. You should see my church just when we have a quarterly business meeting or trying to get the coffee and doughnuts out on the table on time.
I doubt that Paul incorporated tent making businesses in each church plant.
Oh MLD, you know Tents Inc. was a multi-billion denarius industry with outsourcing and everything. It was like Amway to the 90′s church. Paul was planting churches with Tent Inc. franchises in every city.
Praiseathon is on again with Benny even though its a rebroadcast. Benny is like the energizer bunny when it comes to the seed shtick. Again I do not fault him he is working the business.
Watch Sponge Bob instead. Better for you!
AV,
Still sorting it out in my own head.
I’m not sure Michael and I are describing the same thing. I’m not even 100% sure what I’m describing to be honest.
Michael, I haven’t commented in months, but it has been bothering me all day. Rush Limbaugh as an example of losing freedom of speech? He was not forced to apologize, he is trying to protect his income stream because his advertising sponsors are bailing on him, not for moral reasons I’m sure, but for business reasons. Rush can say whatever he wants but that doesn’t mean advertisers have to sponsor him or that anyone has to listen, or that he should be shielded from the consequences of his crappy actions. You normally have a lot of compassion, I don’t get turning his 3 day rant that crossed the lines of any kind of normal decency into a side point about freedom of speech. I think you are right that he spoke what he believes and I am so glad to see it getting enough attention that it might actually cost him something.
Cindy,
I agree.
Let Rush keep talking!
Cindy,
If we stifle Rush, we stifle everyone…if we censor those we find offensive, we will be censored when someone finds us offensive.
I would far rather endure stuff that offends me than censorship.
“If we stifle Rush, we stifle everyone…if we censor those we find offensive, we will be censored when someone finds us offensive.”
100%
Lutheran, for one who’s been doing this as long as he has, Rush sure seems to be showing a pretty big blind spot here. The more he says, the more he shows his calllous rude heart. And the more nauseous I get, but I think you are right, let him keep digging, I mean, entertaining!
Michael, who is censoring him? If the marketplace would actually quit supporting him that’s how it is supposed to work right? There’s been no enforcement saying he can’t say what he said. I don’t have any power to stifle him but I do have the right to be disgusted and let his sponsors know, who also are making their own decisions based on their own interests.
something is troubling me about all those of us – liberal, conservative and church-goer – who want to defend/define the high moral ground . . . not quite sure what that ‘something’ is yet
God keep all close this night
Don Imus, who gets paid to be edgy and insulting, was actually FIRED when he tried to be funny but ended up being stupid and offensive – describing a mostly black college womens basketball team. He apologized and yet, the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world continued to pile on. He lost his job, and it was swift.
It was Rush Limbaugh that defended free speech and Imus, louder than anybody else. As the tide of public opinion turned, and more and more people thought the firing was a gross overreaction, ultimately Imus got on the air again. He proceeded to rip on those who he thought were his friends when they refused to help him out, or go to bat for him – while expressing thanks for the few who did not pile on.
Fast forward to today, when the same Don Imus (himself a recovering alcoholic and drug addict) called Rush a (quote) “fat, gutless, pill-popping loser.” Saying that if he could, he would ban Rush from the airwaves and that his apology was gutless etc. To wit:
“Maybe he’s still jacked up on the Oxycontin, or whatever it is, but you can’t say stuff about somebody and not, 1) own up to it, and, 2) have guts enough to go sit down with her and say, ‘Look, I’m sorry and I won’t do this again.’ But no, he’s a punk.”
If there is one thing I read in the Bible over and over again, is about the Lord’s hatred for the double standard.
AV, that double standard is why Rush still has a job and Imus was fired so quickly.
First off, only the government is prohibited from censoring free speech – and I do not see their involvement here. After that, it is fair game. Anyone is allowed to censor the speech of another. Michael, you do that here when you ban or moderate folks – and you are well within your rights.
I censor speech in my own home. People are not allowed to use certain words and no one is allowed to say anything bad about my wife.
Rush is a big boy (pun intended) and can take care of himself. The country is no worse off because of what is happening – and 99% of all Americans would never know if Rush were on the air or not..
There is no “double standard in this Imus / Limbaugh dialogue – it’s entertainment. You folks need to get out more. Look in 15 min here on the West Coast WWE Monday Night Raw wrestling will be on USA.
Listen to what the wrestlers say about each other when the camera or microphone is on.
It’s the exact same thing – and if you think otherwise, well, you may be a fool.
OK, OK, the wrestlers are more real that talk radio hosts.
Let everybody speak!
Cindy, they have different employers. Imus was fired by CBS. Rush’s deal is with Clear Channel. Hard to talk of a ‘double standard’ when such is the case.
Look at Bill Maher – fired by Disney, hired by Time Warner. Two different employers.
Imus is the one where the double standard applies. He wanted to be treated by a certain standard that he was unwilling to apply to others.
It is to that, and that alone, I speak.
Rush is a big boy (pun intended) and can take care of himself
—————————————————————-
He began the show today saying how, as a sponsor himself with his Two if by Tea, he tried to call his own number over the weekend to cancel, but in calling himself he kept getting a busy signal so he could not cancel.
I thought it was funny…
Lutheran, everyone is allowed to speak. But if I own the microphone, I don’t have to let them use it.
It’s like the Mel Gibson thing several years ago – he can say what he wants about “dirty Jews” but I don’t have to hire him to be in my movie, nor do I have to go watch his movies.
Like I pointed out yesterday – when Opie and Anthony got fired for pranking the Catholic church by having people go out and have sex in the cathedrals – hey they got fired right away.
Rush owns his own show, so he can talk all day long – it doesn’t mean that he has a right to be on a radio station.
But I am ready to form a protest
Free Nails! Free Nails! Free Nails!
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0306-dykstra-20120306,0,6154455.story
I am not understanding the specifics of the discussion but I am very interested and as both a small business owner and a pastor I think I have some perspective to share. But I’m not clear what is being proposed by London and Michael.
—————–
We may not be saying the same thing, so I’m only speaking for myself.
Is the church just doing something (like book store or coffee shop) where proceeds go to fund ministry? Like Anne said with the bake sale example (but much larger).
—————-
That is one option yes.
Is the church investing money to help others start a business, with the church as partner, shareholder or whatever with a claim on the profits?
———————-
Another option that works
Is the church sole owner of a separate business, not run under the umbrella of the church (like the coffee bar is)? This I guess is like the Mormons and the mini-marts where the profits are used for ministry.
—————
Yep. That would work too.
Or is the business itself, supposed to be the ministry while also making a profit (or at least breaking even). Like a Christian hospital or school?
—————————–
Obviously that is an option although that’s nothing new and if it’s a church owned hospital, I’m pretty sure it’s technically a not for profit hospital. Not sure about schools, but that’s typical in hospitals.
I am curious, especially if others are doing so already, just what is being meant by churches establishing and using for-profit businesses for ministry.
—————————–
The things you’ve listed are some examples.
My last post was in response to AVs questions earlier.
Alex,
Your numbers are inflated. Even Rush claims only 15 million per week – that’s 15 million divided by 5 days equals 3 million per day.
Sorry buddy, but that comes to 1% of the population listen on any given day.
I know you good old boys in Idaho love your Rush.
I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to this stuff but was it more than just a few phrases that Mr. Limbaugh went on about? It appears it was a one or two day rant about this particular women, who actually was discussing contraception in the health related issues concerning cyst not birth control per se.
AV, what you said was that you read over and over about the Lord’s hatred for the double standard. But it is only the double standard you choose to address that He hates? I’m not defending the content of either, but Imus didn’t have the money and contract that Rush does. People have been getting rich off Rush, including Rush himself, for a long time, so the standard for how offensive he can be and still keep his job is different than the standard for Imus. Sounds like Imus is a pretty big jerk as well. But there is more than one double standard here. If the Lord hates them doesn’t he hate all the double standards?
In all my years of watching tv cable satellite and now youtube I have never heard Bill Maher ever be offensive to any group especially Evangelical Christians. He is always understanding, balanced and compassionate.
Cough hack.
, but Imus didn’t have the money and contract that Rush does.
—————————————————
LOL. Quite a comparison. I guess Vince Vaugn and Ben Stiller do not have the money and contracts that George Clooney or Brad Pitt have. What’s a few million here and there anyway.
And yes, of course God hates all double standards. He hates when Democrats defend Democrat adulterers while condemning Republican adulterers, and when Republicans defend Republican adulterers and condemn Democrat adulterers.
This is not hard. The ONLY double standard I am talking about has nothing to do with anyone firing anybody. It is the double standard of Don Imus, and he alone – not his situation, but HE..the man himself. And his words expresed today.
Imus wanted (expected) to be treated by a different standard than he was willing to offer another.
Not that I expect anything different. Here is Imus on Larry King a few years back…
IMUS: I’m a Christian. I believe Jesus was the son of God, but I also believe that if you’re Jewish, or if a you’re Muslim, you have the same opportunity for salvation as I do, and I’m at odds with a lot of Christians, and a lot of Christians don’t people that way. A lot of Christians feel that Jesus is the only answer, and I think Jesus is one answer. And I think the Jews have another answer. And I think Muslims and all the other religions have their own answer, and I think their answer is as valid as ours as a Christian.
Forgive me, but I’m a tad skeptical about the Mars Hill thing.
Thanks London. I would rather talk about what you are talking about than Imus and Rush anyway…
I think one or two of those ways offer more opportunity and less potential problems than a couple of the other ways….
I think I would rather see a church own a restaurant 100% outright, for example, using mostly volunteer labor and that sent all revenues to the hungry…. than for a church to invest in a restaurant that some guy was going to run, with promise to be cut in on a portion of the profits to then give to the hungry.
I look forward to Michael sharing what he was thinking of too…
One other thing I was pondering with the issues of apologies and reconciliation. After 30 years being a Christian I have the hardest time when people apologize to me, as I always figure I have it coming or I deserved it or both, and even worse is when people offer sympathy for grief. I feel like I am sinning I E let the dead bury their dead you should be moving on even before the death happens. I know that is not healthy but it is sort of ingrained in me after so many years of thinking that is what God expects of us concerning grief and apologies.
“I think I would rather see a church own a restaurant 100% outright, for example, using mostly volunteer labor and that sent all revenues to the hungry…. than for a church to invest in a restaurant that some guy was going to run, with promise to be cut in on a portion of the profits to then give to the hungry.”
That works too. There’s no one right answer.
Somebody, please, PLEASE…
SLAP PAT ROBERTSON!
AV, this is not hard. The Lord hates double standards, etc, etc. Does He approve of a man calling a woman talking about healthcare a slut and a prostitute? Does he approve of calling for videos? Does he approve of condescion and not addressing the nature of what was said but instead pointing fingers all around? This is not hard, what Rush said was demeaning, and hateful and for Christians to say, yeah well there’s a lot of sin in the world, and democrats do it too? Really? Guess since she’s advocating birth control she’s fair game?
And what did brad Pitt, George clooney or the others have to do with anything? Do u know their politics or just random references to belittle an opinion?
slap pat Robertson are you talking about Pat’s discussing meteorology and plate tectonics
My favorite line was basically you know their a faults and you know the earth is faulty so dont build your house there. LOL
http://youtu.be/wxX6G31a5VI
Try to follow me here, now I know I usually blabber on about non issues but this is really well I dont really know. When my brother, before he passed on, struggled with addiction it effected me, it should not have and I get that and I mean that when I say it, but that is another post. Well he went to a drug rehab center and they sold more drugs then those that were there to get over their addiction. This article caught my eye.
http://tinyurl.com/methlabhospital
It seems one person died and several were injured because of a fire in a meth lab in a nursing home. The article said this is uncharted waters, well no its not and I could go on about that. What we do with our elderly is well criminal and there will be a day of reckoning, if there is not there is no God, but that to is also another post. But I can tell you the times I have spent in nursing homes when they expect visitors / teachers / church groups etc they snap to and there is a higher level of care. That is rather logical I think as well as letting the nursing home know you are there to help them if they need it, which I did when I was there. My “third party” presence made a difference for good. This goes for group homes, women shelters etc. I believe this is one of the largest forces for good the church can perform.
This type of involvement costs bubpcus other then time, well I guess it does cost. So what does this have to do with “why I watch praiseathons” because imagine churches having access to such a wide audience to discuss such issues on a regular basis, even imagine Christians coming up with wonderful alternatives, like have been discussed here, being broadcast over these networks with as much fervor as the 1000$ seed. Offered for discussion.
I made it a point to listen to Rush yesterday while driving about in my work van. I did catch but about a tenth of the show. He closed the show by asking why nobody was talking about freedom of speech.
People are, in a round about sort of way talking about freedom of speech. They are saying that they will only allow what they will tolerate.
That, my friends, is a double standard.
Anyone can turn Rush off.
And anyone can shop with who they want and express their opinions about him too. MLD did a great job explaining how this isn’t censor ship.
Limbaugh’s “weekly cume” is estimated at 15 million. That is an estimate by knowledgeable observers, not a hard fact.
This means that in any given week, 15 million unique individuals have tuned in to Rush Limbaugh’s show for at least 5 minutes.
The irresponsible but authoritative sounding garbage people post here irritates me more than it should, I must confess.
Sorry, I meant “you people post here”.
Even with Dansk’s numbers the result is the same – only 4% of the population listens to Limbaugh. I am sure that half are his distractors just looking for dirt.
That leaves 2% of the population, which seems to include our very own AV, Reuben and Alex.
“The irresponsible but authoritative sounding garbage people post here irritates me more than it should, I must confess.”
The irony in that statement is mind-boggling.
Sure anyone can turn Rush or Robertson off. The point is these idiots still need to be called out as boorish and callous while we turn them off and use our personal influence to persuade others to fill their minds with better content. The key is that boorish and callous behavior needs to have a negative financial response to make these jerks, Rush & Robertson, slow down long enough to cause them to own the effects of their blather, and to slow down their “followers” who unquestionably parrot their platitudes.
Alex, good luck on your new blog and audience. I hope you can influence for reform as you cultivate that wider reach.
Peace
I guess I’m a libertarian on this point.
I turned off Limbaugh 15 years ago and haven’t listened to him since.
Problem solved.
There are places where defining the biblical view on many many issues is now considered hate speech and there are penalties for speaking them publicly.
The knife cuts both ways…
Wow! Alex get’s a blog on Christianity’s version of the National Enquirer and now he is too good for us.
I’ll bet he comes back.
But it is quite humorous that defense of CC, nor the defense of Chuck Smith could get Alex to leave – but challenge his standing as a ditto head and he is outta here!
I imagine there are many places one couldn’t get paid for defining the biblical view on things but I am curious what the many issues are and what the penalties are?
I really don’t understand with all the talk about our society losing its morality, and the church as well, why people just shrug when Rush asks for videos. Is this not “boorish and callous” as G said? Why is it not a moral issue worth at least a little more than a shrug?
Cindy,
In Canada today you can be prosecuted for preaching the conservative biblical view on homosexuality…and it won’t be too long before it happens here.
I have a much different take on this…my morals are deeply offended when Fox News tells blatant lies about Mexico or the poor or the unemployed…that is far more immoral to me than some windbag winding it up again on his radio show, just as he has done for 20 odd years now.
The reason Rush exists and his comrades on the left and right exist, is because people want to hear this stuff…they want to know who to hate and once those people are identified they want to demonize them till they are tired and go on to the next person.
The flack over Limbaughs boorish speech has completely obscured the real issue that was at hand, which was a discussion of religious liberty.
In this country we have the right to speak…righteously or boorishly and people have the right to listen or turn off the radio.
I would like to keep those rights.
which seems to include our very own AV, Reuben and Alex.
———————————————————
Well…so happens I got in the car for a 30 minute drive on Monday right at 9:00 so I switched on to see how he would open the show given the weekend’s furor.
I did use to listen regularly back before the internet, because information (that I cared about) was so scarce. Today, I can watch video of the previous day’s events from multiple sites – and don’t even have to wait for the ‘previous day’ as at least a couple sites will update almost instantly.
When I do stop by on my way to ESPN radio or Dennis Prager, seems Rush is phoning it in most days anymore ….
Michael, Good point on Canada. Have you followed Mark Steyn’s saga up there?
Michael, thank you for your gracious reply. I agree with the immorality of the lies about Mexico, the poor, the unemployed, and that it is a much bigger issue. I too quit listening to Rush a long time ago, and try to monitor who and what I’m willing to allow time in my head. I’m not sure why this Limbaugh thing really got under my skin, it is his thing, but that he would attack like he did over a period of days, and hearing so many (not here) not see a problem w/ treating another specific human being this way, all the while defending b/c they were pretty sure she didn’t live by their moral code, disgusts me. There are issues large and small I guess, and while I would love to see it no longer be economically feasible for Rush to be on the air, wouldn’t it be grand if that occurred because people were not interested any longer in his talk. And yes I know he and the right are not the only source of obnoxious behavior, but he does have probably the largest reach.
Let’s be serious here for a moment. Is Rush Limbaugh any different from Art Bell? Come on, they both make up stuff to satisfy their listeners. Neither of these guys believes their own stuff.
It’s that PT Barnum stuff.
Cindy,
I think you hit the key, which is to be intentional about what you allow in your head.
What Rush did in the case of this woman happens to someone every night on every one of these “news” programs.
We are a sick and scared people and the media is profiting from our fear and need to blame someone for all the things we are afraid of.
I have spent time in my own church preaching from the Word about the need to refuse to participate in this, about being very intentional about limiting the barrage of noise that has replaced diplomacy and dialog in this country.
I hear your heart and I appreciate it greatly.
AV,
I haven’t followed it closely, but I think I have a good sense for where the wind is blowing.
Corporate America made homosexuality normative behavior a long time ago and the rest of the culture is catching up.
MLD,
I disagree.
I believe that Rush and Fox and all the rest are the voice of those who listen to them…and we ignore them at our own risk.
Cindy, Your outrage at a talk radio host “treating another specific human being this way” should be equally as strong at the way Maddow, Matthews, Olberman, and many others “treat another specific human being”
I hope it is.
Most of us see this for what it is – what Michael basically wrote above. These people are not legislators, not even journalists, but political entertainers with a certain audience niche.
The stuff uttered by Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow and many others, daily, is often just as vile, and while I choose not to watch MSNBC, I would be outraged if anyone on the right sought to have them taken off the air. To my knowledge, nobody has made that suggestion from the right.
The larger picture is to look at Europe, look at Canada, and then understand the value of free speech – not in a philosophical sense only (like so many here) but in something worth living, fighting and even dying for.
reading the thread and pondering one comment, Alex G said he hung around here because of his esteem for Michael (good), but those near and dear to him are advising him to write off participation here because of how he’s been treated on his (Michael’s) blog?
weell – i guess i can go with:
“Alex, good luck on your new blog and audience. I hope you can influence for reform as you cultivate that wider reach.
Peace”
“but there’s a weird dynamic here with many of you that isn’t healthy.”
Wow!
Oh,
Checked in and see that Alex checked out.
Told us off first…
Not sure what that whole blog on the Christian Post is all about. How did that happen?
MLD calls it the Christian Enquirer …
I gotta check in more often.
Losing track of the flow
Peace to all
Michael, Steyn’s trial for hatespeech was due to remarks against Islam.
I think this summarizes the madness quite well, and I believe we are wise to look at England as a foreshadow of where we might be in a few years. Check this out from our friends in the UK….
———————————-
Iqbal Sacranie is a Muslim of such exemplary “moderation” he’s been knighted by the Queen. The head of the Muslim Council of Britain, Sir Iqbal was interviewed on the BBC and expressed the view that homosexuality was “immoral,” was “not acceptable,” “spreads disease,” and “damaged the very foundations of society.” A gay group complained and Sir Iqbal was investigated by Scotland Yard’s “community safety unit” for “hate crimes” and “homophobia.”
Independently but simultaneously, the magazine of GALHA (the Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association) called Islam a “barmy doctrine” growing “like a canker” and deeply “homophobic.” In return, the London Race Hate Crime Forum asked Scotland Yard to investigate GALHA for “Islamophobia.”
Got that? If a Muslim says that Islam is opposed to homosexuality, Scotland Yard will investigate him for homophobia; but if a gay says that Islam is opposed to homosexuality, Scotland Yard will investigate him for Islamophobia.
Two men say exactly the same thing and they’re investigated for different hate crimes.
Dread just made me laugh….
Good note to go out on.
Peace to all.
This story will probably evolve into another example of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. It is encouraging nonetheless.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-mansfield/president-obama-pastors-joel-hunter_b_1311348.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
AV, #213 . . . the world dynamic is definitely changing – i’ve noticed over the years that what has happened in England has been a good indicator of what will happen next over here
the dominant world powers-that-be have fed off of and used the Christian Faith since Constantine and that dynamic is ominously changing . . .
AV, w/o watching you know that Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow say worse than what Rush said? I would need specific examples of them calling for someone to post videos of their private sex lives for their personal enjoyment to buy that. Chris is the one I see the most, can’t spend all of life wrapped in this stuff, but there is no comparison on the class level. I do remember Rachel covering intensely different republican senators, etc with their extramarital affairs, cover ups etc. Fair game in my book, they are elected officials not behaving in accordance with their own professed standards and in some cases legal standards.
And I’m not calling for Rush to be removed from the air by some legal authority. I would love to see the free market (isn’t that supposed to be important?) no longer provide a demand for his stuff. Advertisers are free to choose and that isn’t persecution, it’s how the system works.
mld,
don’t mess with Idaho…..
Rush has the right to say what he wants. Then people have the right to protest how they want. If they choose to say for the network to get rid of him, that’s free speech too. It’s also their right to say they won’t shop at any company that sponsors him, and freedom of speech for a company to remove their support from him and explain why they are doing it.
Looks like free speech is alive and well in This instance to me.
Alex’s adieu will likely be healthy for him and those who remain at this watering hole. As far as parting shots go, it’s like a fart in a stiff breeze.
upwindfil
Agree with London and Cindy re: Rush.
Agree with fil about avoiding farts.
I agree, London! (big surprise, right!)
I thought the lack of free speech is when they arrest you and throw you in the slammer or worse for what you write or say. Being ridiculed, losing sponsors v. 25 years to life is quite a stretch.
It gets pretty rough and tumble in the marketplace of ideas and opinions. We all get to choose whether we want to play, pay or not.
Anne, #223 – that should be added to the Preamble to the Constitution
Rick Warren’s response for those interested:
http://saddleback.com/blogs/newsandviews/news–views-030212/
Anne,
Losing our rights doesn’t begin with being thrown in the slammer…it begins with someone deciding that they don’t like what you say and trying to silence you.
Got no problem with Rush holding his views, just his delivery. I expect far more “clever”. Any guy in a locker room can use the verbiage he did. It actually takes some thinking to make a point without being an arse.
Still have a big problem with Robertson, the guy needs to read Job.
Alex, I wish him well, always have, always will, sincerely hope he can effect reform and find peace for his family.
Looking forward to a lot of new fresh air and the return of old friends he drive away…
Shaun,
Rick doesn’t have a shot with his critics…I’m glad he clarified, but he’s the hate de jour for the ODM’s.
“Losing our rights doesn’t begin with being thrown in the slammer…it begins with someone deciding that they don’t like what you say and trying to silence you”
I think that’s if the government tries to silence you. There’s no problem with people protesting, crying “foul” or refusing to listen.
Free speech guarantees the right to say what you want to say. It does not mean you are free of all consequences or reactions to what you chose to say.
Thanks for the link, Shaun. Warren’s thoughts on evangelism were a sweet bonus to his clarifying the concerns of his detractors.
Michael, I appreciate your hearing my heart earlier. I still don’t see who it is that is trying to silence anyone. Are you saying Rush’s critics should be silenced so that free speech can be preserved for everyone?
Cindy,
What I’m hearing is that Rush should be forced off the air and whatever means used to accomplish that is good and righteous.
Critique him all you want…I basically called him a pig in my article.
But I want to preserve his right to be swinish and my right to identify him as such.
Michael,
“What I’m hearing is that Rush should be forced off the air and whatever means used to accomplish that is good and righteous.”
How is this any different than the Mel Gibson thing several years ago? I brought this up yesterday – he can say all he wants about “dirty Jews” but that does not entitle him to still be able to make movies (unless he does it on his own dime) – and if everyone in the world boycotted his movie so that no one say it, that is not censorship in the least.
Believe me, I don’t care what Rush said – in fact I have not even heard the actual comments – so perhaps he is offensive, perhaps not – the point is no one is guaranteed the microphone, and if he get’s kicked off the air, no big – if he stays, no big. The same with those on the other side (although I think they are all on the same side.)
AV, w/o watching you know that Chris Matthews and Rachel Maddow say worse than what Rush said?
————————————————————————–
A) I specifically said “is often just as vile” – I think it is pathetic for either political side to argue ‘he is worse than us’ just because you agree with one side over the other. Recognize them all for what they are.
B) I also see you find this hard to do. Too see it from both sides. Your immediate response to support Matthews and Maddow is laughable except to someone who shares their hard left positions. Sure, dismiss me as a flamethrowing right winger, but ask someone else who is truly apolitical about what they hear when Matthews or Maddow are talking about Republicans. And then LISTEN to their thoughts and try to see it for yourself. I KNOW Rush, Coulter, Beck and others are shock personalities, getting rich off those likeminded. That somehow all the sainted are on the left just doing a patriotic service to the nation is ridiculous.
C) But my main response is to your ‘question’ above. Are you challenging that I could know things these guys say without watching their programs? Really? Did you listen to Rush live, or did you pick it up elsewhere? Do you not think there are scores and scores of political websites that link to youtube and network clips of them going off on their rants. I didn’t catch Don Imus live yesterday either, but my report of his rant was correct because I did listen to it online.
This is ridiculous for anyone who does not think that all these radio folks are in the same fraternity. It’s almost like they get assigned teams. Who is the guy who traded sides – used to be the Clinton guy and is now paid to bash Clinton etc.
And who does not think these folks are in bed with each other – literally!
http://www.carlcoxphoto.com/assignment8.htm
Anyone who pays any attention to any of these people (I don’t care which side) is living in a dream world.
AV, you know nothing about what is difficult for me to do or not do. You come across from a very superior point of view. You don’t answer the specifics you attack my ability to think.
But to your main response, since you know what they say, let’s get the specifics about what is just as vile as Rush asking for videos of others having sex. Quotes.
I never claimed anyone was sainted, or doing a patriotic duty. I didn’t even defend Maddow, but talked about her going after republican ELECTED officials, point being they are fair game.
On second thought, I don’t want any part of any more of this. No quotes for me, if you were so inclined. I can’t believe the turn this conversation took and don’t need to spend my energy this way.
Cindy,
People on the Right by and large are into a “my way or the highway, “black and white” orthodoxy. If your POV doesn’t line up with theirs, they’ll try and destroy your POV, not to mention waste your time.
Fortunately, they’re going down the rathole. They used to be the party of Reagan — now they’re the party of Jerry Falwell.
This article spells it out very, very well…
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/101296/falwell-gop-winters
I say, let everybody keep talking! Especially the Righties!
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/04/10578249-nbcwsj-poll-primary-season-takes-corrosive-toll-on-gop-and-its-candidates
President’s Approval Rating at 50% (Net +5)
Mitt Romney’s Approval Rating at 28% (Net -11)
How GOP Nominating Process has affected Voters’ Views of Party
More Favorable: 12%
Less Favorable: 40%
No Impact: 47%
Head to Head Matchups have Obama at 50% or more against all opponents
Obama 50% Romney 44%
Obama 50% Paul 42%
Obama 53% Santorum 39%
Obama 54% Gingrich 37%
Preference for Control of Congress
Republican: 41%
Democratic: 46%
Lutheran,
Cindy,
I think most Americans are really getting tired of the “Fighting Fundie” mentality that’s overtaken the Repubs. Everything’s a friggin’ fighting point.
In my little hometown in the 50s, girls went to live with their “aunt” in another state for a few months rather than face the unthinkable public disgrace of a pregnancy out of wedlock.
An unmarried woman that would dare stand in public and demand contraceptives?
The Limbaugh word would have been way too nice for her.
Lutheran, and that is what the unchurched think Christianity is. How very sad.
the 50′s were a baldfaced farce of a decade.
As our President lectures us on civility in public discourse, here is a clip of him laughing at Wanda Sykes’ hoping for Rush Limbaugh’s kidneys to fail.
Sykes is an entertainer. And the correspondents’ dinner is intended to be a joking affair. So I get it. I’m not (gasp) offended. My point in all this is to show how it comes from both sides.
Rush is an entertainer too. Something few but MLD seem to understand.
Yuck it up…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsqZRE-9cJk
Side note to Lutheran – You are a few years removed from having any pulse on the Republican party. Us “fighting fundies” are being kicked out of the party – told to sit in the back of the bus, shut up, and not raise our heads until we dutifully show up in November. Meanwhile, Obama invokes Jesus in calling for higher taxes.
Jerry Falwell?? Really, Lutheran? Dead how long? Did you notice the moderate that is about to be the GOP nominee? Did you notice the moderate that was the GOP nominee in 2008? (My use of moderate not being pejorative but descriptive of the actual voting record)
AV,
You’re tracking Rush in real time… very amusing
Dansk, what was the word for the males that I assume were a part of the woman getting into that little dilemma? Or are you talking about bunches of immaculate conceptions?
C, this was a time when the ladies were deemed by virtue of their more refined natures to have a greater responsibility to maintain civility within society.
One could say that was not a fair arrangement, and that the divine design wrongly foists upon them the greater burder of the consequences of what is most often a mutual error.
I think we all wish that with DNA etc. society would hold men more responsible now.
Since when did this become a political blog?
I wish men wouldn’t defend the use of Rush’s words.
Rush is a great band with fine lyrics.
Cindy, I think RL’s words are indefensible, even by him–so he offered an apology. Not all men, here or elsewhere, condone his word choices nor his philosophies.
Rush had the worst lyrics ever. Oh my those lyrics were dreadful.
filbertz, I agree that not all men here or elsewhere condone his word choice, and I really appreciate that. I’ve seen you and many others here be clear in not condoning RL or his word choices. For Dansk to say RL’s words would be to polite I find quite difficult to take. I didn’t mean to imply all men in my response to him.
And you might all be glad to know I won’t be around a keyboard for most of the rest of the day!
G- Made a Del Taco run at precisely 11:45 and KFI was still on from the morning drive (pre-Rush hours).
I had forgotten about Sykes until the reminder. May have to turn in my fighting fundie membership card. I should remember my talking points better if I am going to fight the good fight on blogs hither and yon…
So in 2 days I have listened to Rush for about 15 minutes total – and yet able to share both experiences in a way relative to the thread. The readers should be thrilled. Maybe God led me to the radio for such a time as this.
I’m curious though – are you being held hostage somewhere with your captors choosing the EIB network in the place of more conventional methods?
(that ought to be enough smileys so my words are not misunderstood by anyone)
Peace
Best. Thread. Ever. I love politics. I will now proceed to frolick. ::frolick frolick::
A gentleman would never speak in public as Rush did.
A gentleman treats all women with consummate respect and deference. However disappointing their conduct.
AV,
LOL!
Ya, I had the same experience, on my way to meet for lunch with my wife, tuned the radio, finger slipped the AM button and Rush was bemoaning Obama laughing about Wanda’s shtick.
This must mean something… a sign…
…that we both should reprogram our radios to 100.3 TheSound
http://tunein.com/radio/The-Sound-1003-s33432/
AV,
This also means we both listen to Bill Handel, Gary Hoffman, the whole Morning Crew, and that also means you probably have heard of Neil Saavedra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Christ_Show
…and this also means that you are probably not a “puckerbutt”
Lutheran,, I just got to read the link about Falwell and his influence. Thank you for that, it was very informative. It included that Falwell has been dead since 2007. The article really spells out a mindset.
j2, lol frolic! I like it!
Cindy,
You’re welcome!
I guess Jerry Falwell, like the old SNL skit about Francisco Franco…
Still dead.
(I’m sure in Jerry’s case, at least, very much alive.)