Jan 242012
Part 2 of the story of Andrew, a former Mars Hill Church member who was placed under church discipline, is now up at Matthew Paul Turner’s blog.
I’ve scheduled part 1 of this week’s Linkathon for Wednesday morning, 5 a.m. Pacific.
44 Responses to “Link 1/24”
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Wow. The actions of MH are heavy-handed and extremely cultish. Cults tell you what to think, what to say, how to treat “troublemakers”, and they demand absolute obedience to authority. Sound familiar? None of what they are doing seems to be restorative. The young man confessed his sins, he took responsibility. Now it is time to help to build him back up in his faith. It seems that at the heart of all this is shame and punishment: “how dare this young man take advantage of a leader’s daughter. We’ll show him!”
Equally sad is the fact that many of the MH members seem to be “shunning” a friend in need.
This is just not the way to restore a brother. We are to restore those who sin in the spirit of humility.
Reading the comments on both threads was an interesting exercise. Most noteworthy – and predictable – were the commenters defending Mars Hill, and church discipline.
What you see in Andrew’s story is when discipline and accountability go off the rails. As Michael has reminded us again and again, any type of church government can be abused, depending on the people involved.
As those of us who have read PP for a while, and/or are familiar with the horror stories that have come out of CC, victims will speak up and draw support and criticism; some will support the victims; some will support the victimizers and portray them as the abused; and there are those who will remain silent.
Mars Hill already has a defense against the Andrews of the world. If portraying him as rebellious doesn’t work, then those who defend him can be dismissed as idiot bloggers, unaccountable to real authority. Meanwhile the potential for abuse continues unabated, and whomever is hurt in the future has to think twice before speaking up, and has to have an abundance of courage and strength (from within or Without) when they do.
“Mars Hill already has a defense against the Andrews of the world. If portraying him as rebellious doesn’t work, then those who defend him can be dismissed as idiot bloggers, unaccountable to real authority.”
That is a really big problem, and it started with the cult of personality pastor at the helm. If Mark said that racism was cool, ( with some loose biblical backing) half of A29 would go tat swastikas by the next Sunday service. And I don’t think that is an exaggeration or stretch by any means. Too many follow the man. The man is a failure, just like all the rest, but followed none-the-less.
“getting up off the floor” A three page letter, I usually got the verbal “go away you spiritual piece of filth” or some rendition of that. Or I got the big ignore. To be honest after reading the letter I must admit I dont envy Andrew anymore. I guess I prefer the quick thrust to the slow skinning.
“The man is a failure, ” I understand your point but he fills seats and generates a market share. As long as he can do that he will continue, the second and I mean the nano second he does not, the monster will eat him alive. The machine grinds on and it will, with no mercy, grind up anyone that gets in the way.
I have to stop being so positive sorry about that.
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned…unless her daddy is a Mars Hill elder.
I do, Reuben. A29 wouldn’t follow him THAT far.
On the other hand if he went 180 and embraced word-faith theology, or started teaching Left Behind, how many would jump on that bandwagon with him, solely because of him?
How many people in the church, period, think independently, instead of going along with whatever someone else they decide to follow says? This isn’t just a Mark Driscoll problem. This problem has been with us for a long, long time.
Cult of personality, indeed.
Praying for Andrew tonight…that God would direct him to a church that would love him, help him, encourage him and accept him.
I hear Dave Rolph’s point on the other thread…most churches don’t want to touch discipline with a 10 foot pole.
The real hypocrisy of this is that these guys alone determine what is discipline worthy or not and whether or not the public repentance is enough. They fail to examine and remove the log in their own eyes before removing the splinter in anothers…a dangerous place to be, I think.
Perphaps the most arrogant thing I have seen in a long time . This is simptiomatic of pride and a lust for power. One can only wonder what is next. It won’t be good.
BrianD,
Very well said.
I just got home from work…and what’s in my email from folks I respect is shocking…this story isn’t unique.
This old man may be coming out of retirement for a bit…
There have been so many red flags from Driscoll over the last few years. But who cares, the guy has several multi sites, 3 that are in different states, plus a church network that will soon eclipse Calvary Chapel……….
The birds are nesting in the limbs of the mustard tree.
What is the church? And where can it be found?
Michael:
a) thanks for cleaning up the main articles in the two threads for me and adding the picture. You are too kind.
b) count the cost before you unretire – especially if it’s to take on Driscoll.
BrianD,
Before I left for work, I was very grateful you put that up…now I’m even more so.
If I take on Acts 29…I’m bringing friends… friends that know this arena as well as I do.
I will also say this:
it is stories like these that make me very reluctant to join any Reformed/Calvinist church going forward, and especially one that has a church discipline/membership doctrine like Mars Hill’s.
It also makes me leery of ever signing another church membership covenant again in my life.
In fact, those of you who read this blog, who read my comment, I encourage you to make sure these abuses never happen in your own churches.
Abuse, arrogance, pride, control surely is as not of Christ as sexual sin and perversion isn’t of Him.
Centy,
The church will survive this…because more and more people simply aren’t going to take this nonsense and the system will collapse.
What is the penalty if someone from church is now caught having a burger with Andrew?
Seriously…would THEY go under discipline and if so, what would they have to eventually show that they had repented?
I sure hope so Michael. The shepherding movement has found a new leader.
Centy,
I was thinking the exact same thing…
Wenatchee the Hatchet would be able to answer that better than I could (in regards to Mars Hill specifically). As a former Acts29 church member, I can attest that these churches take church membership and discipline seriously. This example does seem to be a bit extreme (!) but yes, I believe this to be true regarding Mars Hill Seattle.
If you were a member, and you ate lunch with him, and it got back to the elders, you probably would be disciplined as well.
As I said about the two posts: you be the judge on how this comes across.
AV,
Technically having a hamburger with Andrew is the sin of rebellion and would put you under the gun as well.
You would be required to eat salads only, by yourself, until you exhibited the fruits of repentance.
Cent, the church membership and discipline thing goes beyond Mars Hill, into the other big churches in Acts29 (Journey, Village, Summit) and to outside groups like Sojourn, Sovereign Grace and 9Marks. Numerous Southern Baptist churches exercise this sort of thing. I won’t say all of them, or the majority of them, abuse membership and discipline. But the horror stories I’ve read about seem to center on Mars Hill and Sovereign Grace.
Going back to something said a week or so ago….does this sort of thing indicate that “Driscoll’s theology is solid” or the contrary?
Seems like a lot of Bible being used to defend an action that is being roundly criticized..
All I could think of as I read this was CULT! I understand the church isn’t a cult per se but the actions I saw were no different than what I’ve read before with actual cults.
I wonder how the young lady he was seeing is doing? Was there a chance the two were/are still in love and that proper discipline may have been an instrument in saving the relationship?
As the father of a 25 year old son I have no clue how I would respond if Andrew were my son. I’m as mild as they come but if you mess with my family that changes quickly. How quickly do you think someone will come forward to confess sin after seeing this? Scary stuff.
As he said in that interview with Justin Brierley: “I’m a Bible teacher, and if anyone wants to disagree with me, they can argue biblically and I’ll be glad to do so.”
Josh said, and I agreed, that it is hard to really know what church discipline even means when there are other churches down the block one can go to (and then badmouth the prior church if so desiring)
I will say that this sort of thing does keep me more firmly in the ‘no membership’ camp than when I am prone to ponder the ‘what ifs’ of us establishing formal membership at our place.
AV, After reading this story I know what proper church discipline isn’t.
AV,
The theology in this discussion has been abysmal.
It keeps getting framed as a Matthew 18 incident, when Matthew 18 became irrelevant when the young man confessed and repented.
AV,
I find it odd that you allow the buffoonery of Mark Driscoll to influence whether or not you have a membership in your church. I find it equally puzzling that you would not exercise discipline in the church for fear of being “bad mouthed”.
Church discipline should be used to keep the unrepentant sinner away from the Lord’s Table. We saw a very clear example of this a couple of years ago (and I am sure that most here applauded the action – or at least the attempt) when the Roman Catholic bishop called for not communing Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy for their pro abortion views.
If the severity and extremity of this does not give you pause…then I do not know what will.
These people are in my neighborhood. This guy CONFESSED … CONFESSED… and got put to the rack …
Hey everyone… Keep your mouth shut… because open repentance is dangerous
I agree with BD…..anyone who has read this would be terrified of confessing any sin to anyone at that church.
But of course for those at MD’s church I suppose one might have to worry that he could have a ‘divine” vision about your sin and call you out on it, like he did with his wife.
It could just be me, but there is something fishy about the article. If this is such an important issue, why is everyone’s identity with held? Who is Andrew? Who is the girlfriend? Who is her elder father and who the heck is Pastor X?
Did I miss the factual side of this story? Other than Turner saying that some guy named Andrew told him this story, what makes it believable?
MLD…here is my point.
I’m trying to see the value in membership, yet it seems it always come back to control or favoritism (i.e. members get priority) – both things I despise. So why bother?
As to discipline, it starts with a belief that our church is not unique – unlike both Lutherans and Catholics. In point of fact, I seek often to give the big picture of the Body of Christ as including the churches down the street, whether also independent or denominational. Thus, someone gets upset with me, they move on. I think that is not very healthy and stunts our walk with Christ – but there really is nothing that can be done about it.
And so to be clear, I am not suggesting as a Lutheran you believe you guys alone are SAVED. But you give the example above of discipline as to communion – to deny a Lutheran communion from a Lutheran minister in a Lutheran church is a big deal to a Lutheran. Both in what communion means to him and the fact he can’t partake at any other church (as you have said many times here).
I must say that I have had people voluntarily come to me and ask to step down from service because their walk is not right – but I don’t know that I have had to remove someone for a ‘discipline’ issue. Hopefully, that is a sign of some health in the congregation – that people take themselves out of ministry as needed because God’s Spirit is active and working in their lives.
Of course, that is not to say we would not do so if needed (remove from a position of service). But anything even remotely like the stuff we are reading here at Mars Hill is unimaginable to me.
And to be clear – my post above is not meant to knock churches that have membership, or to imply churches that have membership somehow WANT to control and/or play favorites in ministry.
If anyone wants to give an example of the benefits of having membership, that a non-membership church by definition can’t enjoy – I am all ears. I’m sure there must be some.
AV,
You are correct – membership is not necessary, but it is definitly vital. Memebership is not about control, priority or getting on the mailing list. Membership is the end game of a process.
You said that your church is not unique – but neither is the Lutheran church… but we are particular. What you get out of the process is not what it takes to be called a Christian, but what it takes to be called a Lutheran Christian – and without a boastful spirit, what we would call proper Christianity.
The point is that there is a personal committment (actual – not assumed) between the individual, the pastor and the remainder of the church membership – a two way committment, actually stated and presented before the body.
Whether a “non membership” church can do this or not, I do not know – but I know I have never seen it.
The point is that there is a personal committment (actual – not assumed) between the individual, the pastor and the remainder of the church membership – a two way committment, actually stated and presented before the body.
————————————————————-
I would argue that commitment is not really there in any greater way due simply to membership- and point to your own church as an example when you shared of the multitudes of ‘members’ that were still ‘members’ but never went to church anymore.
The one church I was a member at (non-CC) continued to send us stuff in the mail even after we had been gone and attending somewhere else and I had CLEARLY laid out that we were not to be seen as members anymore and were moving on.
AV,
Odd choice of examples as that makes my point. The commitment was made, and even though the one party has not kept their part, we as a church are bound on our end. Until someone specificly asks to be removed from the membership roll, we consider that we still have a responsibility spiritually for these folks and to be there if and when they return.
But you forgot the context in which we spoke about this. Our church made an attempt to reach out, contact AND visit every wayward member on the list. Yikes, a non membership church can’t do that.
So we’re back to mailing list then?
We have a lot of addresses too in the offering records – and certainly could make an effort to secure more from others willing to give them (in fact, I have thought of doing just that). Membership has nothing to do with THAT.
Now, without intending to insult, if you had told me your church had an ONGOING practice of contacting those members who were not seen for a certain amount of weeks, then a 2nd followup if still not seen, then a final followup with a question if they wanted to divorce (i.e. end the commitment they clearly were not interested in) – then great. I would see the value, the commitment, and the relationship.
But what you described seemed little different than a marketing effort blitz where the sales manager says “We went through the files and want you to contact all the clients we lost in the last five years and ask them for their business back” (and then handed out postcards with last known address).
One thing in conclusion….any church (or pastor) that wanted the sort of control described in these Mars Hill articles would HAVE to have a membership and enforce a mindset that only members are really part of the church…
Because nobody else would put up with that crap for 30 seconds…
Have a good day all…
LOL – I made the case for membership being the culmination of a process. You brought up how wayward members challenge the concept and made it about mailing lists.
So, let’s see, how did you say it? “Now, without intending to insult…” you are the one making the case that you prefer to build you mailing list soley from the offering plate receipts… must be like a country club membership instead of a church membership.
I don’t have a mailing list..but I could get one by simply asking people to fill out a form.
(Actually, this discussion is all part of my master plan to get you fired from your new job so we can have more time for coffee
)
Get back to your cubicle and go to work!
I found this interesting. I wonder if they are decentralizing in Seattle?
http://www.churchjobfinder.com/church-jobs/senior-pastor/lead-pastor-job-in-seattle-washington-5498.asp
Hmmm…. maybe I’ll apply….. Naw, too much rain, too many skinny jeans, not enough Wranglers and boots…… and yes, I look often…..
Centy…come to NM and take a slice of the franchise
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