Jan 102012
And, a CNN article on the book and surrounding controversy.
Then, a list of reviews and commentaries:
Fuller Seminary’s The Burner Blog
Credo Magazine (HT: Denny Burk)
Emerging Mummy (HT: Bill Kinnon)
Eugene Cho (you’ll definitely want to read the comments)
Part 2 to be posted later this evening.
86 Responses to “Linkathon 1/11, part 1: more Real Marriage”
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Blech…..
What a nice list, Bd, a real service, thanks.
All I got to say after reading several of the reviews and articles and Mark Driscoll’s replies/justifications/preemptive attacks on his detractors is:
What A Perv!
hope you don’t mind if I post this here…
on the Driscolls and sex:
1) Sex may not be part of the Gospel per se, but it surely is part of “discipleship” for SOME people, at SOME points in their life….at least in these environs. Right or wrong?
2) WHOM address the issue BETTER/more biblically/more consistently/less annoyingly/less hypocritically? Critics who only point out flaws but can’t point out someone who does it RIGHT are suspect; SURELY SOMEONE can!
I know that the motivation behind someone addressing sex maybe suspect, but surely there CAN BE a good motivation…it’s got to be possible.
Whether or not they write a book or a blog about it is another thing….
Brian D,
Can you mention more about Tim Keller addressing this subject?
Does he do so responsibly in ways Driscoll doesn’t?
Thanks
Eugene Cho’s “review” is right on! I loved it! (but it did take me a second to “get it”).
Driscoll is getting just what he wants, attention. It is bothersome that he (not just in this book) is becoming increasingly known for talking about sex. He seem preoccupied with the subject. That is concerning. He started well; I hope he ends well. The last thing the Church needs is another scandal involving a “high profile” pastor.
I’m sure I won’t read the book. I have listened to Mark before and I his homilies are about as deep as a puddle.
http://www.challies.com/book-reviews/the-meaning-of-marriage
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/novemberweb-only/tim-keller-meaning-of-marriage.html
http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Marriage-Facing-Complexities-Commitment/dp/0525952470
Simply put jtk, given Keller’s reputation and body of work, I would trust him on this matter sight unseen, and that he won’t stumble the reader with crassness and controversy.
Grace Driscoll’s comment on the mommish-hair-cut incident struck me as somewhat disturbing. (1) I think it’s funny and a little bizarre that she could say with a straight face “Hair is a big deal for” us. That seems goofy and superficial. (2) It chilled me a little when she suggested she should have asked Mark before getting her hair cut and that not doing so showed him disrespect. The idea that you should check with your husband before you get your hair cut just screams that the relationship is dysfunctional and that he’s a controlling jerk.
***As women we need to keep ourselves, and our spouses have preferences for us, whether it’s hair or clothing or how we carry ourselves. We need to consider each other in those things. As wives, we don’t want our husbands being unkempt, generally. So it goes the same way for a husband. Hair is a big deal for us [Mark and Grace], so when I made that decision without even asking, I wasn’t considering Mark. It may not have been a big deal, but because I didn’t ask, it felt like disrespect to him. It’s not that I have to run every makeup thing by him or every pair of jeans I buy. It’s just that I’m considering that he appreciates the way I tend to myself, and I want to ask him if he has opinions. It’s another extension of the respect issue.***
It’s also more than a little troubling that Mark supposedly considers Grace to be his “functional pastor”. (1) I don’t know that that is the sort of responsibility that one should place on one’s spouse. (2) In a practical sense, how could she possibly be his pastor given his view both on the role of women in church and the roles of wives in a marriage? If he’s supposed to be the leader and she’s supposed to be submissive to him how could she possibly “pastor” him in an effective way? (3) He knows tons of trained, educated pastors. Why doesn’t he view any of them as his “functional pastor”?
I am too cheap to buy books, but by reading enough reviews, thanks to Linkathons like this I get most of what is in the book.
Is that wrong?
J2:
Let’s extend your argument a little further. First hair grows back for most people after its cut so personally having a hairstyle pleasing to my wife is an easy thing to do and to correct if it is bad.
Now let’s say I had a wild idea (inspiration because this kind of thing “has to be from god”) about tattooing the entire bible down both my arms, around my neck and for good marks on each cheek of my face (no one would care about those hidden “cheeks”). Let’s also say I did it while my wife was out of town on a trip to her family. How do you think my wife would react?
Now let’s reverse the roles and say I am a pastor and do this?
Now to make things different let’s reverse the roles and say I’m a pastor and it was my wife who got the tattoos without my knowledge or consent. What would the reaction be?
Tattoos can’t easily be removed and therefore leave a permanent mark of a person’s (in my example) lack of submission to their mate. While hair will grow back think of the spouse who every day has to remember how they didn’t consider their spouse when they got “inspired.”
This marriage thing is not a “I’m husband you wife submit” (thumping of chest), it is a mutual submission and ownership of bodies. Paul’s instructions about submission are directed at the husbands role to lead his wife and household to love God and others. Paul is affirming the role so plainly taught in Genesis and the “hear oh Israel…”
Oh well big subject, so let it make its mark on you!
Lurking again
Specific sex talk should be relegated to marital counseling, and even there very vague direction would most often suffice.
I agree with Josh. My Dad always says that God’s truth is the right thing said at the right time to the right person (people) in the right way.
Sometimes our manner is very unbecoming. God can fix that.
J2,
“The idea that you should check with your husband before you get your hair cut just screams that the relationship is dysfunctional and that he’s a controlling jerk.”
I would disagree with you on this point. My wife has long hair, and has had it that way since I met her 45 yrs ago.She knows that I like it that way and for her to go out and cut it short with no discussion would be the sign that our relationship is dysfunctional and that on her part would show that she is controlling.
I thought the Bible was pretty clear on marriage and sex – it does not require much reading and has no need for it’s own ‘church’ book.
1.) Have 1 spouse for life
2.) love each other
3.) stay away from close relatives and animals.
It’s worked for us for almost 43 yrs.
Just wanted to chime in that “Josh the Baptist”s new moniker is hilarious. Very witty Josh
I’m a little more j2-ish on this question. My wife styles her hair however she wants to. Doesn’t bother me, she always looks great. I started going bald at about 17. I hope my rating as a mate isn’t based upon hair fashion.
Thanks Yappie!
I thought the Bible was pretty clear on marriage and sex – it does not require much reading and has no need for it’s own ‘church’ book.
1.) Have 1 spouse for life
2.) love each other
3.) stay away from close relatives and animals.
It’s worked for us for almost 43 yrs.
”
MLD, Simple and to the point.
I just looked at who endorsed the book on the Jacket blurbs. I just lost respect for a couple of pastors. Why is a “sex manual” from Driscoll even necessary – because he needs to sell books. If I was a betting man, I’d bet that in the next year he’ll publish something even more outrageous and over the top. He’s a publicity hound.
Also wanted to point out that the little section on sex from Mere Christianity is very much true. While a sexual appetite is normal and good, the insatiable nature of the sexual appetite we have cultivated in our culture is perverse. Imagine a room full of men paying to see the lid lifted of a platter of food. Anyone would see that something in that culture is wrong. We’ve let our food appetites get out of control. However, a room full of men paying to see a woman strip is totally normal. Driscoll’s book both feeds and capitlizes on these out of control appetites. As a pastor, he should certainly be guiding people towards more healthy, moderate, sexual appetites.
Since this is linkathon…
The Supreme Court actually had a unanimous ruling in support of churches not being subject to the same employer/employee discrimination laws – and rooted their argument in the 1st Amendment.
This is a huge win – and the fact it was 9-0 and focused on the 1st Amendment is a terrific precedent.
You can google Hosanna-Tabor v EEOC and read about it.
Here is the money quote:
“The interest of society in the enforcement of employment discrimination statutes is undoubtedly important,” said Chief Justice John Roberts. “But so too is the interest of religious groups in choosing who will preach their beliefs, teach their faith, and carry out their mission.
“When a minister who has been fired sues her church alleging that her termination was discriminatory, the First Amendment has struck the balance for us. The church must be free to choose those who will guide its way.”
Shock value and will no doubt fill seats.
J2, I would never stop (or think of stopping) my wife from cutting her hair. I just want to share my opinion on it. If nothing else, it gives me an opportunity to tell her how beautiful she is.
MLD, your #16 is awesome! I will try to work that into a message…
covered – “Shock value and will no doubt fill seats.”
Yes. Shock value fills the seats, but people needed to shocked more and more to keep the seats filled. I wonder what Driscoll will do next to keep his machine rolling?
Trouser drop.
Josh, that’s too funny. A little cold in Seattle for that but might be in the works.
The number one key to a good marriage is MARRY THE RIGHT PERSON!!
Sorry I lost it there for a second.
The lie is that you can marry whoever you want and rely on the Magical Marriage Principles and a lot of fasting and prayer to bail you out.
Sounds like Driscoll is true to form: Controversial. Sells a lot of books and draws lots of people to church!
“MARRY THE RIGHT PERSON!”
So how does one know she/he is the right person?
In many ancient cultures the parents negotiated for a spouse and the marriages worked out. Yet in our culture we have so many dating and selection principals we still either never get married, get married late in life or marry multiple times.
So who is the “RIGHT PERSON?”
I was going to just lurk but that response got me to post again.
Help.
I can’t find where at PP we discussed that denomination taking the debt-free church, nor do I remember the names of the players to google the story.
Can someone help? (I’m trying to make a point at another blog.
)
AV,
The Supreme Court always agrees with the LCMS – because we are always right!!
Actually, the biggest part of this case was, can a church classify a school teacher as a minister of the word.
It was a Things I think from two or 3 weeks ago. I think they’re was more tho the story though.
http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=10562
That’s the one.
AV – was it Christian Missionary Alliance??
Ooh, I’m a Jeopardy contestant on the PP. AV, Here ’tis
http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=10562
it was the CMA and they also published their side of the story as well. I posted it but it didn’t get any traction so I assume people didn’t see it.
That church they “took over” was not a healthy church at all it would seem.
Thank you all. I kept looking through linkathons, not Things I Think.
Josh the Baptist said:
“.Also wanted to point out that the little section on sex from Mere Christianity is very much true. While a sexual appetite is normal and good, the insatiable nature of the sexual appetite we have cultivated in our culture is perverse. Imagine a room full of men paying to see the lid lifted of a platter of food. Anyone would see that something in that culture is wrong. We’ve let our food appetites get out of control. However, a room full of men paying to see a woman strip is totally normal. Driscoll’s book both feeds and capitlizes on these out of control appetites. As a pastor, he should certainly be guiding people towards more healthy, moderate, sexual appetites.”
If your married you don’t need to have a moderate sexual appetite. I would want it every day from my wife and hopefully she would too, nothing moderate about that. Sexual desire is perfectly normal and very healthy when in the parameters of marriage. It is to be enjoyed to the hilt!
J2Theperson said:
“Grace Driscoll’s comment on the mommish-hair-cut incident struck me as somewhat disturbing. (1) I think it’s funny and a little bizarre that she could say with a straight face “Hair is a big deal for” us. That seems goofy and superficial. (2) It chilled me a little when she suggested she should have asked Mark before getting her hair cut and that not doing so showed him disrespect. The idea that you should check with your husband before you get your hair cut just screams that the relationship is dysfunctional and that he’s a controlling jerk.
***As women we need to keep ourselves, and our spouses have preferences for us, whether it’s hair or clothing or how we carry ourselves. We need to consider each other in those things. As wives, we don’t want our husbands being unkempt, generally. So it goes the same way for a husband. Hair is a big deal for us [Mark and Grace], so when I made that decision without even asking, I wasn’t considering Mark. It may not have been a big deal, but because I didn’t ask, it felt like disrespect to him. It’s not that I have to run every makeup thing by him or every pair of jeans I buy. It’s just that I’m considering that he appreciates the way I tend to myself, and I want to ask him if he has opinions. It’s another extension of the respect issue.***”
I don’t see the issue with what Grace said. It is very normal in relationships to consult one another on haircuts, clothes etc., it’s just being thoughtful. I guess because you don’t care for Mark so your opiion is skewed.
Colossians 3:18-Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Ephesians 5:22-Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
1 Peter 3:1-Wives, likewise,be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives.
Proverbs 27:15-16-A continual dripping on a very rainy day And a contentious woman are alike
The word of God is true and every man a liar.
Well, one thing is established. MD is creepy. I don’t know if he is or not, my marriage has worked well without the Mark of that beast. His church is heavy handed and apparently his marriage is a mirror of it with alternating lords.
Just a little reading of this was quite enough. If MD just showed public graciousness and humility most people would overlook whatever the book says. As it is it seems to verify that the man is focused.
Hair and tattoos are so totally different that I don’t think they can be compared. As you say, PB, hair grows out again. Cutting it is a temporary thing. Tattoos are permanent, expensive, they have health risks, and it would be out of the ordinary for a person who grew up entered adulthood and got married without ever getting a tattoo to suddenly go out and get one–getting a tattoo in that situation might hint that they were going through some emotional or psychological problems.
I totally get that spouses have preferences regarding their mate’s appearance. But at the same time it still seems weird and controlling to think that it’s disrespectful to not ask your husband ahead of time if you can get your hair cut. First off, I really object to the term “ask”; a woman shouldn’t have to “ask” her husband if she can get her hair cut; it makes it sound like she’s a thirteen year old begging her mom to please, please let her change her hair cut. It might be nice for her to “consult” him, but ultimately the choice is hers and she can style her hair as she deems appropriate. Secondly, I reject the notion that not consulting him is disrespectful. Prior to this day, it would never have occurred to me to consult my husband about getting a hair cut–not because I don’t love him or respect him or what him to be happy, but because *it’s a hair cut*, one of the most mundane, inconsequential things imaginable. Particularly as relates to the story in the book, Grace getting her hair cut was such an average thing. It’s so common for women to cut their hair short when they have small children.
Basically, to me, it seems like a huge overreach to claim that it’s disrespectful to not ask your spouse first before you get your *hair cut*, and I think it was particularly overreaching in the story in question.
I don’t seeDriscoll’s attempt to define “Real Marriage any differently than I do pastors who cast visions for the church. Both instances are pastors trying to gain control over spiritual thought and both can only lead to making me the pastor’s slave or his ememy.
I saw it, london, and I read it.
I’ve done a lot of counseling for a lot of years.
I have great relationships with professional therapists that I can refer folks to when I’m in over my head, which is often.
Isolating sexuality from the whole of a relationship is inane and panders to our prurient interests only.
Sexual problems in a relationship are usually symptoms of bigger problems and it’s those bigger problems that need to be addressed.
We don’t need “Christian” sex manuals…last time I checked we could probably figure out how to perform these acts on our own…the parts aren’t complicated or numerous.
Most of the other issues can be addressed just like any other relationship problems and there are many biblical principles that apply.
This is just soft porn for Christians and fodder for men who want their wives to act like porn stars.
It’s selfish and cruel and is nothing more than “Christian” locker room talk…only low life,narcissistic vermin would publicly speak and write about a mates abuse issues and sexual sin.
I’ll go back to what I was doing now…
But the whole hair thing seems pretty minor next to his claim that his wife is his “functional pastor”. What does he even mean by the term “functional pastor”? Is that a position you should place your spouse in? In a complimentarian or soft patriarchal relationship is that a position that the woman could execute effectively or would the beliefs about husbandly headship and wifely submission interfere with her pastoring her husband? Why is Mark’s wife his “functional pastor” when he knows tons of trained and educated ordained pastors; why is one of them not pastoring him?
Curious concerning our female commentators here.
What is your take on Mrs. Driscoll being a major part in all this. They really are marketing this as a team.
Is she a Stepford wife or just as worthy of criticism as Mark in all this. (Not to imply only an either/or choice…I know there are other options…)
Uh, um, gosh, Solomon.
Ever heard of TMI?
Or boundaries?
Here is my take on the hair.
I can see only two possible reasons why this was an issue for Mark. Either:
A) He would have tried to talk her out of cutting it. To me this fails the ‘love your wives’ test for love does not ‘seek its own way’
B) It was less about the hair and more about her doing something independently that even tangentially involved him.
It is to choice B that I think speaks to an even larger issue of concern.
Many pastors insist every decision of the church be run by them. It’s not that they CARE if the youth group is going to have a pizza night, it all has to do with control and that everyone knows who is boss. It is a weird understanding of ‘respect’
I don’t know whether A) or B) applies in the case of the wife’s hair – but I don’t really know a 3rd option.
While I was in the grocery store check out line yesterday, catching up on cultural relevancy (thumbing through the tabloids) I read about Katy Perry (I have no idea if she is an actress or a singer) getting a divorce after a short term marriage to some guy. It said that she found out some things about him she did not previously know. One being that he wanted (I don’t remember if they said demanded) sex 5 times a day from her.
So, according to Driscoll and Young, is she just not following God’s plan?
I am sure that if I spent more time doing the grocery shopping I would know who Katy Perry was, but alsa – that’s woman’s work.
Ha! Mr. Cho proves blogging is dangerous and you’ll get in trouble no matter what you say! Or don’t, lol! The old adage “you can’t please all the people all the time” should be a bloggers motto, me thinks!! The comments speak volumes ( ha, literally volumes!)
MLD – Katy Perry actually is the daughter of a Pentecostal pastor.
I saw an article a year or so ago titled Katy Perry used to speak in tongues – and I had to click on it.
(She also is huge in the music business. She tied Michael Jackson in 2011 as the only one to ever have 5 #1 songs from the same album)
Now…I can’t tell you what any of those songs are, or if I could even recognize one.
Firework – They do that one at Newspring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rShHUMyHoyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWJUlNBeTxk&feature=related
And a song called “I do not hook up”. That’s worship!
But keep in mind AV, the music business is 100% different from when Michael Jackson’s Thriller came out. Sales are measured different, and rankings are achieved on a different scale. She is nowhere near the iconic performer that Jackson already was in 1983. It’s a little deceptive.
Oops. I Do Not Hook-up is Kelly Clarkson.
Up there somewhere, Solomon said:
“If your married you don’t need to have a moderate sexual appetite. I would want it every day from my wife and hopefully she would too, nothing moderate about that. Sexual desire is perfectly normal and very healthy when in the parameters of marriage. It is to be enjoyed to the hilt!”
Again, you are mixing to things. Sexual desire is normal…yes. Caving to every sexual desire (even within marriage) is good…not at all. Even within marriage you have to keep your evil desires on a short leash. Spend more time in prayer and conversation. Do the hard things that aren’t so natural, i.e. taking out the trash. Since when is feeding our natural human desires a good and holy thing? Answer: It’s not.
Agreed, Josh. Though it was actually Bad, not Thriller, that got Jackson the record – your point still stands.
She is huge though for today. We need to help MLD look hip
I knew a guy (not a Christian as far as I could tell) that spoke about the sex life he and his wife had in ‘dangerous’ places – like in a parking lot or on an elevator.
He spoke about how great it was ‘when the mood hit’ to just find the nearest semi-secluded spot and go for it. I don’t think that is a sign of a healthy marriage or anywhere near what God intended for the sexual act within marriage.
I wonder if Driscoll’s book has an opinion?
DavidH asked “Yes. Shock value fills the seats, but people needed to shocked more and more to keep the seats filled. I wonder what Driscoll will do next to keep his machine rolling?”
A) He will try to one up Kurt Warner and Tim Tebow
B) talk Dana White into getting his foot in the door in the UFC then fight his way to the heavyweight title by Christmas
C) Mars Hill Television Network!
You guys are over thinking the room here. Mark Driscoll likes sex and lots of it, no different than most other men. This doesn’t make him a pervert but he should not be talking about his specific sex acts that he does with his wife. That’s between them.
Josh The Baptist said;
“Again, you are mixing to things. Sexual desire is normal…yes. Caving to every sexual desire (even within marriage) is good…not at all. Even within marriage you have to keep your evil desires on a short leash. Spend more time in prayer and conversation. Do the hard things that aren’t so natural, i.e. taking out the trash. Since when is feeding our natural human desires a good and holy thing? Answer: It’s not.”
I agree that there are still limits concerning the marriage bed and what is allowed in that area but the actual appettite to have sex with your spouse should hopefully be big. The taking out of the trash and stuff like fellowshipping with your mate should be happening anyways so why would one detract from the other. Read the scripture below, Paul knew what he was talking about
1 Corinthians 7:5-Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
re: #45
Rome is burning and we’re wondering whether a loving, contemporary, outspoken born-again couple are comprised of a Stepford wife and a brute? They don’t look disfunctional to me and sometimes exploiting your position in contemporary society is the will of God. I pray that they’ve said their piece and it speaks to a s*x-saturated and deadened constituency and that they all will move on and do so joyfully, more aware of His awesome holiness – growing strong in the nurture and admonition of the Lord
“You guys are over thinking the room here. Mark Driscoll likes sex and lots of it, no different than most other men. This doesn’t make him a pervert but he should not be talking about his specific sex acts that he does with his wife. That’s between them.”
That’s what we said.
Dansk said:
“The number one key to a good marriage is MARRY THE RIGHT PERSON!!
Sorry I lost it there for a second.
The lie is that you can marry whoever you want and rely on the Magical Marriage Principles and a lot of fasting and prayer to bail you out.”
This ^^^^^
EM – My Stepford wife comment spoke to the question whether MR. Driscoll deserves all the criticism for this book. It does not look like you have a problem with the book’s contents or its messengers, so that is fine, but it also looks like a minority view among the commentators (and among the many links of review Brian offered).
This looks like a partnership book and promotional tour. So I would argue the criticism should split both ways, 50/50. I was open to the idea though that MRS. Driscoll goes along with whatever Mark wants – and the hair anecdote gave me reason to think so.
I think that the wives’ (Mrs. Driscoll and Mrs Young) involvement here is more like the wives who stand up for the TV cameras behind their fallen politician husbands when they get caught in a sex scandal… what else are they going to do but ‘stand by their man’ – or grin it and bear it?
If Grace is his functional pastor there’s still his approach to headship, “It’s not headship until you disagree”. Now if Mark Driscoll said he made his wife his “functional pastor” and said that this was a huge sin in his life he needed to repent of he’d be consistent with what he’s said and published as a pastor over the last fourteen years. If not, well, uh … I don’t know what to say about that. Has he been saying in the present that Grace is his functional pastor? That would fly in the face of everything he’s said about gender roles in marriage over the last fifteen years that I know of.
The “functional pastor” is from the 5th page of the Christianity today article. From Grace’s brief description of it, it sounds like what she’s doing as his “functional pastor” is praying for him and supporting him in whatever decisions he makes. I don’t understand how that could be considered pastoring, but I don’t really understand what they mean by the term “functional pastor” anyway.
“functional pastor” could be the role that a child plays toward a parent then.
Functional pastor is a term that makes no sense to me if it simply speaks to someone who prays and supports you.
If I heard the term, I would think of the man that a pastor looks to as his pastor – even though literally that man would NOT be his pastor, since the pastor is already pastoring his own church.
It would be the man the pastor could seek for his own counsel, to ask opinion of, or if there is any experience in the functional pastor’s own ministry that the pastor could benefit from in a given circumstance. It might be the guy that ultimately would do the funeral service for the pastor.
That is what I would think of as functional pastor in the context of someone like Driscoll who pastors a church.
I would never dream of it applying to my wife.
Brian D,
I think from yesterday should be added to your list. And I can’t believe I wrote on post on this subject without stopping by PP first. The comments on Michael’s Points 1 & 2 on this week’s Things I Think would have been very helpful.
Akk. Forgot to close the html link. Sigh. Maybe I’m just too old for this stuff anymore.
Bill…you did well without me.
The idea of Driscoll having his wife to be his “functional pastor” is strange given his strong Calvinistic and complementarian beliefs.
It almost sounds like something he made up, to work to his personal benefit.
“It almost sounds like something he made up, to work to his personal benefit.”
Much like the rest of the book…
Thanks Michael.
And thanks to “Snap Shots” you can tell I meant to link to Ed Stetzer’s post from yesterday.
Doug Wilson
http://www.dougwils.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9250:sexual-dirt-and-a-gospel-backhoe&catid=84:sex-and-culture
Sex between husband and wife should be kept between Husband and wife. No pastor, elder, minister needs to know what a man and his own wife do in the bed. Any issues in the bedroom between husband and wife need to stay between husband and wife. The Husband has authority over his own wife, the Pastor does not have authority over another man’s wife.
In answer to your question at 45, AV. I really don’t know. My cynical side is inclined to think that the only reason she is a coauthor on this book is because it lends more credibility to a book on marriage if it is written by a husband/wife team as opposed to just some dude, and I have my doubts as to whether she was a full partner in the writing of it and if her imput was valued or if she just said whatever Mark wanted her to say or whatever she knew Mark would be happy with. But, at the same time, I don’t really know anything about her. My doubts arise because he has consistently presented himself in a manner that makes me think he’s a bully who views his wife as a sexual object. If there’s truth to my perception, then I don’t see how the writing relationship could possible be one of equality.
But, in the end, I just don’t know enough about her to be able to tell if she’s just a stepford wife or if she was an equal part of the writing or what.
I recently worked for a man that bought ALL his wife’s clothes, drove her to work and back and kept track of her all day on instant messenger. Both he and she would say he loved her a lot. He was very disrespectful to me, and my guess is the behavior crossed the marriage barrier, too. I’ve done enough counseling and HR work to be suspicious. The dirty little secret of manipulation is that both parties believe the lie.
More from Doug Wilson
http://www.dougwils.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9250:sexual-dirt-and-a-gospel-backhoe&catid=84:sex-and-culture
http://www.dougwils.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9249:preliminary-thoughts-on-qreal-marriageq-part-dos&catid=84:sex-and-culture
PB#29, if you are there: how does one know the right person to marry?
Not sure – but what is important is to be broken and humble before the Lord and look to Him, and not be at all self-willed in the matter.
If one thinks, it does not matter whom I marry, as long as I apply the wonderful teachings I hear on marriage – that would be a problem.
So how one knows would involve a lot of prayer and fasting and reflection and counsel, and perhaps in most cases, some time. But the underlying attitude – Lord I want one that you approve for me – is what matters.
A prudent wife (or a good husband) is from the Lord. Prov 19:14
Linnea,
You hit the nail squarely on the head…
Wisdom from a friend’s 18 year old daughter…an excerpt from Tim Keller… http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/relationship/features/27749-you-never-marry-the-right-person
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/01/10/drew-sex-and-the-bible.cnn
(also linked at the bottom of part 2)
Solomon…you forgot this excerpt:
Ephesians 5: 25-30
I hope that each of us and those in our churches around us find someone trustworthy and responsible that we can talk to about these issues……
Of ALL the church folks *I* have talked to and asked, only ONE OF THEM had a “sex talk” with their Christian father. A lot of young men and women need parents, whether that be natural or spiritual, to help them sort out these issues in the sexual Babylon we live in.
that cnn video of the Drew Pinske show:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/01/10/drew-sex-and-the-bible.cnn
…was immensely entertaining and telling.
The sex therapist lady was twitching like Nebuchadnezzer in Daniel 3:19.
That video made me think it is good that they are addressing the subject in the marketplace of ideas….but I’m no Driscoll fanboy.
We have an entire younger generation that is learning about sex almost SOLELY from internet porn (average age of exposure = age EIGHT); at least here’s ONE alternative.
A BETTER alternative is REAL relationships with trusted people we KNOW, and we know whether their lives add up, within the context of a local church!
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